[JESII]

My home course, Huntingdon Valley (outside of Philadelphia), has one, the 16th, and for years I have heard people say how it is the only weak hole on the back nine. Is this a common perception? I think the hole has a number of really strong qualities and don't understand why simply because it is uncommon it is substandard.

Is #9 at Augusta a reverse dogleg? How about #14? How are these holes viewed if they are in fact reverse doglegs?

[Mike Benham]

By reverse I assume you mean the cant of the fairway is away from the dogleg ...

[Eric Pevoto]

Jim,

As a general rule, I think a lack of containment bothers golfers.  Reverse doglegs have a high annoyance factor.  The ground works away from the shot shape presented.  The contour tricks the eye and its hard to get a good feel for the shot.

As for the 16th at HVGC, it should be an easy left to right into the hill, or an aggressive draw over the hill for a little boost.  

Considering most the golfing population can't turn the ball to the left, they also won't play a club that will keep them from ending up right of right on that hole.

It's also one of the few holes there that presents trees as an obstacle (other than for really terrible shots).  Eleven would be the only other.  Interestingly, both on the left.

[Jonathan McCord]

    A hole that immediately comes to mind is the 4th at Crystal Downs.  One of the best examples of a reverse dog leg, if I understand the term correctly.  Mackenzie challenges the golfer to hit the fade.  If successfully completed the golfer has a more level approach to the green.  If the ball is hit straight or with a little draw, it runs through the fairway and into the rough making a tough second shot from below the green.  Just another great hole at "The Downs."

[Mark_F]

JES II

If by reverse dogleg you mean one where the outside of the hole is the best angle to attack the green from, then the estimable TE Paul answered this question a few months back.

I think, basically, it is a test to see if you are thinking - the shortest distance between two points is a straight line - and it you do that on a reverse dogleg, you've been caught out and face a more difficult approach.

[bodgeblack]

Another famous, and generally well liked reverse dogleg is the par 5, 17th at Wentworth.

The perception there is certainly not of a weak hole.

Eric called it correctly when he said "The contour tricks the eye and its hard to get a good feel for the shot."

It is a good tool for the architect to use to unsettle the player because of conflicting information running though the mind.

cheers

jamie

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

Flynn designed a lot of dogleg holes where the outside line is the best angle for the approach shot.  Sometimes he threw in the added components, and difficulty, with bunkers in the corner and reverse cants as well.  Huntingdon Valley is a course that demands precise ball striking because of the uneven stances you get and the way you have to shape shots against contours.

Rolling Green 2nd, 5th, 12th, 15th, 17th and 18th holes are all doglegs where it is beneficial to be on the outside of the dogleg.  Some have bunkers in the corner of the dogleg, such as 2, 12, 17 and 18 that should not be challenged.  In the case of 2 and 18 the fairways also have reverse cants.  A lot to consider!

I'll think of some others but I have to get the boys off to school.  Jim, If you aren't as familiar with RGGC as I think you must be, perhaps you'll come over for a close up look with me sometime.

By the way, the better line on the outside means the holes play longer to those that figure it out and execute correctly.

[mike_malone]

 JES11

    I am curiuos about the trees on the left and the bunker(s) right on that hole. Are they both in the early versions. I think that one or the other should go, but I would be interested in what Flynn did.

[JESII]

My intent was to define "reverse dogleg" as a hole with its dogleg going the opposite direction as the cant of the ground. After reading a couple of responses I seem to recall the thread a few months back that covers the "outside of the corner is preferred" style. Interestingly, the hole I mentioned seems to fit both criteria. I wonder if this is a commonality among the reverse cant style, to also have the outside line be advantageous.

Mike Malone,

Regrettably, Wayne or Tom are probably much better resources for anything Flynn may have originally done (even at HVCC), so I could not answer for sure, but I think we can safely assume that both were in place when Flynn finished. The trees on the left are only in play at all if you are in the left rough or if you are outside of 175 -180 to the green. For a short hole, I don't see much problem there. The bunkers along the right are not really in play from the tee at all and so also don't come into play frequently. I actually just realized you are probably speaking of the bunker short and right off the tee. My apologies, I agree with you completely that that should be removed. I have a hard time imagining what value that adds to the hole.

[Tyler Kearns]

JES II,

I believe the Olympic Club's Lakeside course is full of reverse doglegs, making it exceptionally difficult to keep the ball in the fairway. It is deemed by "The World Atlas of Golf" as the course that was routed in reverse. To those who play the course regularily, does the encroachment of the trees in addition to the reverse doglegs limit the shot-shape options from the tees?

TK

[wsmorrison]

I think Jim is right.  The trees on the left are not really in play unless you hit short and shyte or wide left and on such a short hole, I hit iron off the back tee, the trees shouldn't come into play--if they do, it is deserved.

The hole went through several iterations, below is one hole drawing from the routing map that shows the trees in place (there's been some encroachment).



This hole drawing shows the hole with the bunkering similar to that found today.  The left greenside bunker is not present and the two bunkers on the right are now one and maybe a bit short of where they were.

[wsmorrison]

By the way, that is one complicated green plan that can be seen on the bottom picture.  Talk about greens within greens.  Maybe Jim will talk about the putting surface for us.

[Eric Pevoto]

Thanks for the images, Wayne.  I'll defer to Jim as well.  I must have hit my last tee shot left.    Doesn't the hole turn a little more left than the drawing shows?

[David_Tepper]

One of the primary criticisms  of the OC Lake Course is the number of 'reverse dogleg' holes.  Holes # 2, 4, 5 come most easily to mind, where the fairway bends one way but the fairway slopes the other.
   

[wsmorrison]

Eric,

The fairway does seem to move more today than appears in the drawings.  I think the fairway was narrowed, and the pinching came from the left side of the fairway to make it seem like more of a dogleg.  The treeline seemed to follow the pinching in to the right.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne, I believe there is a new tee back and to the left...

That or the trees have encroached A LOT more than in that drawing.

One of my armchair architect designs (the nine holer) had a reverse dogleg hole with no bunkers that plays about 310 from the tips... it got blasted moreso than any other hole in the critiques that followed. It seems that most of the posters here don't jive with the concept.

16 at HVCC is a very solid proposition either way, and when played right is a good birdie hole going into the closing stretch. If the Flynn nine at HVCC had any weak hole, I'd say 13 or 14 would be better candidates than 16, yet I wouldn't call them "weak" by any standard.

[James Bennett]

Two 'reverse doglegs' that MacK did here (better outside line than inside, not the reverse slope dogleg) are #1 at Royal Adelaide and #9 at New South Wales.  Both are about 380 yards, dog leg left with a single bunker guarding the front-middle left of the green.  In each case the green provides minimal backstop, particularly if played from the inside of the hole.  The green is aligned to benefit play from the outside of the dogleg, allowing adequate depth of green to pitch and stop on the surface.

The RA hole has bunkers on the outside corner of the fairway, which I think were added about 30 years ago, along with the mounding of the rough on both sides (it is otherwise a flat area).  In part to distinguish between #1 and the adjacent practice fairway IMO.

The NSW hole plays across a sandhill, with a high spur coming down from the right at about the tee-shot length.  Play the shot to the right and you lose roll because of the spur.  Take on the spur with a draw for added length and you risk going a long way left, with the resultant shot playing across the green, over the left hand bunker.  

I find NSW #9 to be a 'sleeper' whose design simplicity (ie a single bunker) is something I can only appreciate now through some small understanding of architecture.  RA #1 still plays similarly but has the outer bunkers added.

[Sean Leary]

Would 4 at PVGC be considered a reverse dogleg?  I seem to remember it going away from the dogleg right tee shot.

[ian]

JES II,

There are more than a few at Huntingdon Valley.

Convention has most architects trying to slope the fairway with the play which is emmently fair and playable. If you reverse the cant you ask a player to work the ball. The modern player hates to work the ball because "that's unfair."

What makes that hole so great is the draw tee shot is followed by a draw approach (due to the slope of the green) from a fade lie. Now that takes a great shotmaker to accomplish that shot. This is pressure, especially when all the trouble lies in pushing (tha natural slope makes this want to happen) the shot into the worst of the trouble (right).

Great hole, the people who don't like it are candy ass crybabies who want everything to be fair. Flynn is one of the few architects I have seen use this regularly. The great part about these holes is they favour accuracy and working the ball over pure length. Hmmmm, there is a lot to learn from Flynn.

Ian

[JESII]

Ian

The only other "reverse dogleg" I can think of on the property is the 5th on the C-nine. I generally refer to the A and B nines as the regular golf course, possible because my score for those 18 is about the same as that on the C-nine alone . In regards to your candy ass statement, I agree 100%. On a nine generally considered very difficult with plenty of opportunities to make a mistake, it is very often the rather benign looking 16th that does them in.

Tyler Kearns,

I actually had Olympic in mind as I was writing the subject because I have heard so often about its difficulty due in large part to this characteristic. I have never been there however, so I would be curious, as are you, about more experienced players thoughts.

Wayne,

Again, thanks for the drawings, awesome. Interesting that there is no left greenside bunker in either drawing, any idea when it may have been added? Not having that bunker would dramatically alter ones approach to virtually any pin position. The severe side hill lie in the fairway forces you to aim at that bunker with the hopes / expectations of moving the ball to the right. I wonder how the hole would play without it.

Great point about the green, it certainly is three greens within one. The front pin seems to play at least one half stroke easier than either the back left or the back right, so long as you keep the ball in the front or short. The back portion of the green has become as difficult as any I've played with the short iron typically in hand. Based on those contour arrows, you can imagine that the difficulty is in trying to get the ball to react properly once it hit the ground. As you know we keep the course as firm and fast as possible so you better have the ball under control or it will get blown dead off that right side. Then there is the problem of leaving the ball too far left and above the hole.

There are presently two tee complexes, a runway style tee box that I would guess is an addition about twenty yards to the right (and 15 feet lower in alltitude) and the one shown in the drawings. Wayne's explanation that the angle of the dogleg has increased over the years due to a narrowing of the fairway from the left makes perfect sense to me, although I have no exact evidence. The fairway still runs along those bunkers all the way down the right, and is not presently 45 to 50 yards wide as illustrated, so I'm convinced.

All in all, considering the difficulty of hitting the proper tee shot and the challenges facing the approach and putting, I find this to be a phenomenal short par four. Not sure I'd want 9 or 10 of them in a single round though.

[ian]

Jes II

Doesn't the 11th fall right but dogleg left?

I seem to remember you have to work the ball on the 7th to hold the slope too

The 5th on the C nine is a great example that sticks out.

What about the 8th on the C nine?


I must admit I'm pushing my memory here, so I might have this a little off'but if those are correct, that would be a lot for 27 holes.

[Kyle Harris]

JES II,

I guess the three times I've played Toomey/Flynn at HVCC the tee was on the "runway" style tee you mentioned. Either way, do you know its history?

[wsmorrison]

Ian,

I fondly remember our walk around at Huntingdon Valley.  

I think you're somewhat right about the 11th hole.  On the topo of the course routing, it looks like the fairway slopes about 10 feet left to right with the great 11th being a dogleg left.  I cannot remember that the ball is really propelled to the right though of the tee shot.  What a terrific use of angles on that hole and strategic use of existing trees.  

I also agree that 5 (20 foot slope according to topo) and 8 (10 foot slope) on the C nine do have reverese cants to the angle of the doglegs.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne and Ian,

The third on the C Nine also cants severely to the outside of the dogleg (around the cluster of bunkers in the fairway and around the corner from the tee, especially). Though the landing area and the green approach are fairly level.

Can you confirm this, Wayne? I'm just working from memory.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

There is a slope left to right but the tee shot is straight away, the fairway doesn't really turn until later in the hole, past the landing area--at the mid-point of the bunker field on left and tree on right.  The fall line then is approached pretty much straight on as the hole is slightly downhill the rest of the way.

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