[Ran Morrissett]

A friend faxed me an article today that said there are potential plans for six more golf courses, one convention centre, etc. around the immediate St. Andrews area.Many of the locals fear it will turn St. Andrews into the Disneyland of golf. I would have to say I agree.First, the courses built will be on indifferent land, so indifferent courses will follow. There is no appeal to surrounding the ancient city with bad golf courses. St. Andrews would look like it is under attack!Second, the city will be swamped with even more hapless tourists and golfers than presently. Bringing too many people into a small area is never good long term. The ambience will completely disintegrate.I hope the town will have the courage to stand up and say enough is enough.

[Bob Ellington]

As long as the town planners of St. Andrews have the ability to analize the quality of each golfing project, and they only give their final permission to the highest calibre ventures, then I say the more, the merry. I liken it to Spanish Bay. Pebble Beach is a mecca which will always draw golfers into the area. The creation of Spanish Bay a decade ago has only enhanced the overall experience of going to that area. St. Andrews could use a similar second focal point of the highest quality.

[Joel_Stewart]

This thread was from 1999.  How many courses are there now and what are the new ones besides Kingbarn?

[David Sneddon]

This thread was from 1999.  How many courses are there now and what are the new ones besides Kingbarn?

The Links Trusts have
Old, New, Jubillee, Eden and Strathtyrum plus the beginners Balgrove course.  They are also developing another course on the east side. That's 7 courses under their direct control.

Kingsbarns

Dukes Course, owned by the Old Course Hotel, recently bought by Herb Kohler.

StAndrews Bay - two courses

Recently approved  resort and new course by Weiskopf, just outside town.

There are enough good courses in the immediate vicinity of StAndrews that I don't see the need for any further golf course development.  Within a 20 minute drive, you have Scotscraig, Lundin, Ladybank, and Leven and within 1/2 hour or so, Carnousitie.

Most development now comes under the County of Fife planning dept, since there is no room within the town limits of StAndrews for any more courses.  However it will be StAndrews that will have the burden of accomodating these extra visitors, which, as I see it, is to the detriment of an already overcrowded town.

Thank God there is always Dornoch.

David

[Tom_Doak]

St. Andrews is a very tempting market for developers of golf courses.  Golfers are drawn there in great numbers, and the overflow of people who can't get on the ballot at The Old Course is substantial.

Kingsbarns has been successful at capitalizing on that market, certainly more successful than if it had been somewhere else in Scotland.  The Duke's Course and St. Andrews Bay, however, haven't been judged as good enough golf courses to be equally successful.  With the seventh course at St. Andrews underway, it appears that the Links Trust would rather make that money itself rather than letting it slip away to outside operators.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am not with Ran on this one. First, while reported yes, I still doubt if 6 more courses are really going to be built. The land around there is not that bad. I think the problem with St. Andrews Bay, The Dukes and the 2nd course at Crail is they are very average golf courses and I know I have no interest in playing them. i have walked some or most of each of them. I think a few more good courses will help a tough situation involving TOC. Plus the links trust does not maintain the New or Jubalee consistently. I have played them when they are fine but on the ragged side and when theyare really bad and barely playable. I would think one or two good courses would be a good thing. That is the part of Rans comments that force me to pause for it is a small area with limited resources and space to add more. I am hoping the limitation on accomadations in the immediate area will help keep down overcrowding.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

fwiw, i've never been and would like to go. I really hope this happens before i gaze at a drive on the road hole and my eye catches the golden arches on an interstate-height pole...

my stepson and wife played the Eden course and did not think it was particularly special. I can't comment but i've heard that about more than one of those additional courses.

Lake Geneva, WI was a sleepy, neat village on the lake and a neat summer hangout. Now, in summer you cant get from one side of the town in less than 45 minutes, a 4 minute ride if you catch the three lights.

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing...

[David Sneddon]

I agree with the boys who want to halt development.  The city is overcrowded now.  More courses will just bring more people.  The last time I was there in the summer the place felt a bit Disneyish.  

BTW  Gleneagles and Elie are also very doable from St. Andrews.

Ciao

Sean

Exactly!!  There are enough good courses around St Andrews without any more needing to be built.

I've been going to St Andrews since the early 1960's, and spent many weekends there during the summer.  On one hand it is great seeing so many people journey from all four corners of the world to visit the shrine of  The Old Course, but on the other hand the pricing and crowding is ridiculous.

It is still possible to have a great golf trip to Scotland without breaking the bank - my friend in Texas and I arranged such a trip for May 2004 for 8 of us. Four rounds at Royal Dornoch, Cruden Bay, two rounds at Crail, three days all you can play in St Andrews, Old Course and Carnoustie.  With B&B for 11 nights, 15passenger bus and fuel came to $2200US each.

My worry is that such trips may no longer be affordable in the near future.

David

[ForkaB]

St. Andrews (and Scotland) have a long term strategy of making the place a destination resort, a la Pebble Beach or coastal Spain.  To do this, they need more product (i.e. golf courses) to keep the punters in town for longer than a day or two.  And they need more upscale facilities such as the Old Course Hotel.  (Anybody else note that the Univerfsity dorms overlooking the 18th green are going to be converted into luxury condos?  Yup, they are.  Bring mucho dinero if you are interested....)  This is happening and the result is that the place is very different than it was 25 years ago.  But then again, so is Pebble Beach, and the Costa Brava....

It would be nice if we could roll back the clock to when a round on TOC cost £5, and you could get a nice B&B in town for the same sort of money, and pints were 50p, but those days are long gone.

To a lesser degree, the same thing is happening at all the "name" courses, including Dornoch.  If you want the "Scottish experience" of the 70's and 80's these days you have to go further afield, to courses of modest pedigree and towns of less renown.

So, the answer to Ran's question is "no," unless you adhere to NIMBYism and/or are unable to enjoy TOC, the New Course, Eden etc. in the context of a more modern environment than you might have hoped for.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lets get a grip. Rich and few of you see St. Andrews much more often than i do. It may not be what it was at one time. However I have never not gotten a bar stool or been able to get a table for dinner. I cannot ever remember not being able to get a hotel room a few months ahead of time at the hotel of choice. I have never even had trouble getting a table in the bar at the Rusacks and thats with a really good looking and friendly barmaid. That bar overlooks the 1 and 18th and the R&A. It is a sight at night. Yes it is somewhat crowded but a lot less than Picadilly Circus at 4AM or any other tourist place in western Europe. I plan my trips to Scotland around Muirfield's avalability and not the crowds at St. Andrews. Actually it is not that crowded except to play TOC. Dornoch has gotten to the point of having issues but not ones that cannot be overcome with a few questions about tour groups. The only time I feel a crowd is when a damn tour bus full of americans pull in anywhere in the UK. Then leave for 2 hours and come back and all is well until they load up again. I would just as soon blow up Perry Golf for fooling around with the golf experience.

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