[JohnV]

... be an even more intimidating hole if it was visible earlier in the round than when the player is on 16?  You hear all the players talk about how they think about it from the beginning of the round.  So, if they could see it when they were playing a hole on the front 9 would it increase the tension level even more?

[A.G._Crockett]

John,
I venture an opinion and say, in general, no.  For most people, fear of the unknown (in this case, the unseen) is greater by far than what they know and can see.  I would think that the workings of the mind over the hours leading up to #17 would build the hole up in the players' minds more than if they could see the hole at the other points.

However, this may not hold true for the pros.  They are probably better by far than the rest of us at staying in the moment, and they might ONLY think of #17 if they can see it.

Maybe during the Players, there should be big video screens at each hole showing balls going in the water at #17 over and over and over...

[Brian_Gracely]

Well, if it plays anything like #16 at CPC, then I'd say that it doesn't matter if you don't see it until you get to the tee.  Considering all the exposure it already has (pictures, TV, etc.), it's already burned into your brain.  The real shock is actually getting to the tee and having the reality match the image you had in your head.  

[JESII]

Maybe during the Players, there should be big video screens at each hole showing balls going in the water at #17 over and over and over...

Or, at the very least, large speakers playing the audio of the crowd as each ball is hit and splashed. Maybe a repeating lowlight reel of all the balls ever hit into the water.

[Bob_Huntley]

I may be crucified here, but I do believe that the 17th hole at Sagrass is an abomination.

Will some the architectural cognoscenti in this forum, tell me what I am missing?

Bob

[A.G._Crockett]

Bob,
I think you are right, at least in any normal understanding of GCA.  It is just awfully entertaining, though, to watch train wrecks when the trains are the best players in the world on the next to last hole of a huge tournament.  By extension, it then becomes fun for us to play the same hole.

My impression, however, is that having #17 at your home course that you play 125 times a year would hugely annoying, as it is clearly THE most penal golf hole on the planet, or at least tied for the lead.  It's only a cool gimmick because we don't have to do it often.  Can't imagine that the GCA would be good to emulate.

[peter_p]

JvdB,
On Thursday and Friday it becomes the 8th hole one of the two days. Is there any difference in scoring average because you start on #10?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bob,
I am with you, I think it is an awful hole..unles...you are watching on tv and somebody else is dunking it into the lake..then it is rather fun.
Architecturally I think it is indeed an abomination...much like Mourinho attacking referees

[A_Clay_Man]

Bob- I wouldn't say that at all.

Having just recently golfed the hole and course, I felt it was well within reasonable shot demands.

One thing I did notice was the boomerang aspect of the teeing ground. It seemed like you could have limitless angles of attack. I did lament that we played from the furthest left position. Even into the howling wind, it would've been much more exciting with the bunker almost centerline.

As far as the original posit goes, Mr. Ben Dewar was trying to get me to think about the hole well before we ever got there. It didn't really work, because in my recent travels as a GW panelist, I've been privy to quite a few holes that resemble that shot demand. A couple of those holes were original holes from Pre: 1927

For the record: I hit both the bunker and the water on the same ball   Truth. Put my 3rd to 15'.

[JohnV]

It is the ultimate penal hole.  You either hit it or you die.  Given the length of it, I think it is pretty good.  I'd hate to see a hole like that which is 210 yards, but at 135 to 145 it is a fun/scary hole depending on if you are watching or hitting.  Other than the fact that you lose your ball and have to reload, why is that much different than a Rayner short hole?  I know, that is a big stretch of "Other than that".

A.G. the pros all talk about how they think of it from the beginning of the round.  Fred Funk was asked when he starts worrying about 17 and he said, "On the way from the range to the 1st tee."

Peter, it would be interesting to see if starting on 10 made a difference in scoring on the hole (or on the front 9 since they'd have it out of the way already).

[BCrosby]

Bob -

I didn't appreciate how bad 17 was until I played it a couple of years ago in a bank outing. There were about 16 players in the group, 14 of whom had handicaps of 18+. About 10 of those 14 never finished the hole.

Bob

[ForkaB]

To the question, no.  No more than would CPC 16.

To the naysayers, this is a very good golf hole, for a number of reasons, including:

--psychological effect
--very good green complex
--tradition points!

One of the great things about the hole is that once you actually stand on the tee, even the back one, the hole looks so near to you that you could kiss it.  The green is big, it is canted strongly towards you, and it's only a 9-iron or a wedge.  So what's the problem, pussycats?

[Bob_Huntley]

'Tradition points'..... really Richard, tell me you are just trying to shake the pot.

I think Tom Paul has it right, you are the most ornery dissenter on the planet.

Bob

[A_Clay_Man]

I was hoping rihc would mention it, because I failed to. But, the holes placement within the routing is as good as it gets.

While I didn't place the course as high as GW's list, I did feel the finishing 3 holes were definitely the highlight.

[Gary_Nelson]

I had plenty of time to be distracted by 17.  The walk up 16 gave me 10 - 15 minutes to see 17 green sitting there in the pond... inviting me to take a try.  It distracted me so much that I screwed up 16.

I love that hole #17.  Can't wait to try it again someday.  I think it's placement in the routing is just fine.  Perfect position to decide a match.  Perfect drama late in the round of the Players Championship.

[Jfaspen]

On the video game (tiger woods 2005) the hole stretches back to 185 yards..

It is quite a shot from that distance..

Realistically, I would like to see a small elevated tee at about 145-150..  Make the players hit a bit more than a wedge and bring some more decisions into the process.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I had just made par at 16 to get the honors on the next tee.  While walking off the green I started looking for the tee.  I was a little perplexed as I didn't see a tee near by... a few seconds later... oops we're at 17.  
I had completely forgotten.
So I guess not everyone is thinking about the hole all round, some even forget.

My playing companions offered as I had the honors I could choose to hit first or let them go first to better gage my club selection.  They had all played there before.

No thanks I'll go first, I replied, as I was teeing the ball down.

Playing at 135 yards, I aimed 5 feet left of center, ignoring the pin, allowing for a slight left to right breeze and landed exactly in the middle of the green, easy 2 put distance for par, which I made eventually....

Next on the tee, a good player I'd guess about a 5.  He proceeded to hit 5 balls in a row into the drink, except the 5th which hit the bulkheading and bounced back in the h2o.  He then walked back to me, pulled the club out of my hand, saw it was a 9, grunted, and walked back to the tee and hit at least 3 more in and quit.  The next 2 guys eventually hit from the forward tee after dunking 5 balls between the two.  One never even made it from the forward tee.

#2 off the tee then told me, on the way to 18, about how he'd done this before with his father, put at least 8 in that time too.  Never finished the hole either time.

He then proceeded to birdie 18 like it was dessert.

I could see how that would be considered an abomination, but it will always bring back fond memories.

Cheers

[Gary_Nelson]

Mike,

Given your example of your playing partners dunking a dozen balls in the pond, does this not elevate the architecture of hole #17 to the highest level?   I thought that great architecture includes the ability of the designer to fool the players and intimidate them once in a while.

How can some folks make claims that this hole is an abomination or awful looking when it does it's job so solidly?

Gary

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

Given your example of your playing partners dunking a dozen balls in the pond, does this not elevate the architecture of hole #17 to the highest level?   I thought that great architecture includes the ability of the designer to fool the players and intimidate them once in a while.

How can some folks make claims that this hole is an abomination or awful looking when it does it's job so solidly?

Gary

Gary,
 I could design a hole that Tiger Woods, Vijay Singh and Uncle Tom Cobley and all,  would have trouble making a triple, but it would still be an abomination.

[Wayne Freeman]

Having just played there 2 weeks ago, I thought 17 was very cool. We hit right next to the pro tee at about 140-  the wind was with us a little, but just as I got ready to hit it swirled left to right and a little against.  I stepped back and got set again, feeling the wind with me again.  The pin was in the front and I hit a smooth nine iron 12 feet to the right for an easy par.  My partner hit it to 4 feet and birdied.  I think it's a terrific hole, and actually it wasn't as intimidating as I thought it would be because you really only see the water in front of the green which looks pretty big.  But for higher handicappers it's a nightmare.  The other 2 guys in our group played the front left tee (about 120) and hit 5 balls in the water.  I'll tell you one thing-  if I was going to worry about one shot way ahead, it would probably by the tee shot on 18!  

[Jerry Kluger]

I wonder whether 17 is really everything it is cracked up to be.  Sure, at the end of the day there are highlights of players who put it in the water to ruin their day but how many of them did it when they were in contention in the final round.  My recollection is that it has only been a significant factor a couple of times.  The hole that has been more influential in the outcome of the tournament has been 16--which I believe is a great risk/reward par 5.  Davis Love won the tournament with a great second shot out of the rough.  Other players have drowned in the water on 16 when they knew they had to go for it and the pin was in the back right.  To me 16 is the exciting hole at Sawgrass and is a great hole for professional tournament golf.  

When one thinks of a hole which intimidates a player early in the round I think of number 5 at Pine Valley.  It is not far from the clubhouse and dormitory and we arrived the evening before we were to play and our host walked us out to number 5 and let me tell you that is one intimidating hole and it is not a 7 or 8 iron shot.  Most players would be very satisfied with bogey on that hole and you don't have to take a penalty stroke to make 5 with the severity of the green and the surrounding areas.

[Jim Johnson]

Anybody have any idea what the square footage is of the green itself on the 17th?
And how many square feet on the entire island at 17?
Just curious.
JJ

[Doug Siebert]

I can't remember the square footage, but I remember when someone posted it last year I was shocked.  It was much larger than either island (including surrounding collar of rough, cartpath in back, etc.) on my home course's double island green 13th, which plays up to 210 yards when the tips are all the way back and the pin is back on the long green.  I had always assumed it must be pretty small to inspire such fear.  I keep wondering what the fuss is about that 17th at Sawgrass, but maybe going back to the "spoiled" thread I see it all the time and much worse than Sawgrass (though generally without as much wind as there is at Sawgrass) that I find myself unable to imagine it as very nerve wracking.

The one nice thing ours has for the hackers is that there is a drop area that's got only 40/60 yards of water to hit over so it is only the Tin Cup types who keep reteeing from the back that empty their bag of balls trying to negotiate it.

Our 13th, now over 50 years old:

[A_Clay_Man]

This is from 1926. While a Par 4, the principle is the same, idn't it?


This one is not a good picture, built pre 1920 and is a one-shotter.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

John,

The "staging area" of 16 and 17 is brilliant.

That having been said, I would agree that, if a player could catch a glimpse of 17 earlier in the round, it might play in his mind even more.

I actually had that in mind when I did the routing of a recent course.  I designed the 17th hole as an island green.  And, as I was routing the front nine, I purposely placed a hole (the par three 8th) behind my 17th, so that golfers could see what lies ahead as they played the 8th hole, and then think about it for the back nine.  The 8th and 17th formed a kind of "T" shape, so players could look across the lake for the whole 8th hole, and see the island green...

The course should open in 2007.  I'm betting I'll put my first two balls in the drink.  

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