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THuckaby2

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2005, 03:45:37 PM »
Tommy:

WHEW!  I thought something must be up.  Your post just came right after my question, and I too am a Tom, and I so trust you.....

So never mind.

I'm still curious which holes are supposed to be Eden copies on these NorCal courses.

 ;D

johnk

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2005, 06:21:32 PM »
It could be that I have TOC hole names wrong?  I mean 11, which is apparently called "High - In".  What is the Eden?  Another name for 11 or 7??

Anyways, the copies of 11 are:

I think it's number 6 at ER.  Par 3.  Big sloping green from back to front.  Giant pot bunker on right/center = strath bunker.  Other bunker on left - and the crowning touch: one in back middle.

At San Ramon, I've only been there once, I think it's number 5.  It's a par 3, with bunker in middle left, as it slants away.  Actually, now that I think about it, it's more a copy of the Road hole green.

I was trying to say something nice about them.

johnk

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2005, 06:24:23 PM »

#6 at ER is actually a very useful hole, and an accurate copy...

When I think about it, I don't know how nice this is to say, but those 2 are probably the best holes at either course...  :)


JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2005, 06:35:15 PM »
The only Miller course I've played was "BADLANDS GC" in Las Vegas...in my opinion, the developer should have left out the "LANDS" portion in the name. ;)

From what I recall, it was penal architecture from the first hole to the last green.  I played it with some high handicappers in a company outing years ago, and it was sheer torture trying to get a couple of them around the course before dark, without serious injury. ;D
« Last Edit: March 24, 2005, 09:07:21 PM by JSlonis »

Pete Stankevich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2005, 10:30:10 PM »
Binks Forest anyone???
Going once, going twice, gone!

THuckaby2

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2005, 10:08:48 AM »
JK - you have the Eden at TOC correct.  It's also known as High-in.  #11.

But whoa... oh man, if that hole at ER is an Eden than I am Aretha Franklin. I mean it's not even close.  The ONLY similarity at ER is the pot bunker on the right... only problem the real problem one is on the left at TOC.  And the shape is completely different.  And it also has two other bunkers short and right that make it what it is, not to mention the steep fall-off at the back onto the beach....  The green is also completely different in the real thing....

Good lord... #8 at Shoreline is closer to an Eden than this hole.  And since I know you know that hole well, that ought to tell you something.

I know you meant this as a compliment, but you may unwittingly have just given the most damning condemnation of Miller in this thread, if he thinks that's an Eden.

TH

ps - I don't recall the par 3s at Bridges.  I have blotted most of that course from my consciousness.   ;)

pss - want to see a pretty nice Eden that's nearby?  #5 Meadow Club.

johnk

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2005, 03:35:44 PM »
I'm pretty surprised at your response, Aretha. :)

Looking at the pix of both at the respective web sites you can definitely see that it was an attempt at a copy.  Do you agree with that?

http://www.standrews.org.uk/golf/the_courses/old_guide2004/old_course_hole_guide_11.html
http://www.eagleridgegc.com/tour.htm

The similarities are more than just the copy of strath bunker.   The greens severe slope, the left bunker, the size and spacing of the opening between the bunkers, the length of the holes, the raised nature of the tees and tee positions relative to the bunkers, and the tri-partite nature of the green are all rather similar.

The big differences in design are mostly the raised nature of the back at ER and lack of fall-away, and environmental factors like views, grasses, green firmness.

Shot values and pin placement options are very similar.  Behind either the real strath bunker or the copy of strath bunker is very hard to get to in either case.  Behind Hill bunker (left) is also an interesting place at both courses.   The space between the bunkers is not a great leave when the pin is tucked to either side.  Above the hole is no good either...

Even if you don't credit the architects with getting it right, I think they created something thats a pretty a accurate reproduction.  I give them credit for trying to steal from the best.  At least they didn't copy one of "The Bear's Best"...

Besides, if you continue to disagree with me, I will challenge you to a duel at either Pasatiempo or Spyglass so we can discuss it :)  Cause god knows, I'm going to ER anymore...

THuckaby2

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2005, 03:50:08 PM »
John:

I will point you to a book, in which classic golf hole types are discussed extremely well.  It's called "Classic Golf Hole Design", by Robert Muir Graves and Geoffrey S. Cornish.  I've cited it before in here as I really believe it's invaluable for folks interested in golf course architecture.

In any case, the Eden is discussed in many places in the book.  The many attempts at replicating it are described in fine detail on pages 224-231.  

If anyone can read that and tell me that this hole at Eagle Ridge is an Eden, well then I really am Aretha Franklin.  

Because John, in addition to the things you cited as missing (which are HUGELY necessary to come even close in replication, btw) is some form of the Shell bunker.  So while the golf hole at ER does have a decent pot bunker that in a HUGE stretch of imagination could be seen as a Strath replica.. and a little pile on the left that could in a wild stretch be seen as a Hill copy, well... it's missing completely the Shell.  Good lord man - they have a WATER HAZARD where the Shell is supposed to be!  But most important actually is the complete lack of fall-off at the back.  That's what makes an Eden an Eden, I think.  Many other holes that try to be Edens account for this somehow, in different ways... it can be a trench bunker at the back, or just a fall off down a bank, or something.  The hole at ER has a pitiful little bunker, and continues UP the embankment to the next tee.  That alone sounds the death-knell for any Eden replica.

So OK, I will grant you this:  I am not doubting that they TRIED to make this an Eden hole.  My hope really was though, for their sakes, that you had this wrong and that this wasn't an attempt at an Eden.  Because they failed so miserably in the attempt, well... they ought to be ashamed really if this was their intent.  Especially because the land available would have allowed for a truly accurate reproduction to be created if they wanted... that was all manufactured as it is!

John, John, John.  All one has to do is look at a diagram of the real Eden to see that calling this an "accurate reproduction" is like calling me Aretha Franklin.  Yes, one can say it, but no matter how heavy I am and how well I sing, it's not gonna be true.

 ;D ;D

BTW, playing the two holes is actually the final nail in this.  The shot requirements are not even close to similar.  At TOC, there is a LOT going on, and we need not get into it here... at ER, the only thing required is that you miss the front right bunker.  Par can be made from anywhere else (and even in that bunker isn't THAT bad, as it's not really all that deep and though it has a neat stacked-sod faced, it's really just eye candy).  There is a pretty good cant to the green, so I guess another thing is "stay below the hole"... but man even a miss long isn't bad... A miss long at TOC is either death or makes for the stuff of legend... and I have a great story about that if you care to hear it.

Oh well... I actually think #6 at ER is a pretty good hole - one of the best on that course.  Of course that's not saying much, and one thing's for sure, it ain't an Eden.

TH
« Last Edit: March 25, 2005, 04:03:57 PM by Tom Huckaby »

THuckaby2

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2005, 04:10:40 PM »
One more thing, JK:

My distaste for ER comes from having to do the rating there twice - it was a royal pain in the butt, took us forever - AND being forced to play it several times in NCGA qualifier events.  The course really isn't THAT bad and I do keep going back...The severity just makes it really painful in competitive play, that's all.  Prior to NCGA changes re enforcement of slow play, rounds there would take FOREVER.  SO many drops, reloads, etc.. and wacky greens making SO much attention to putts....

So perhaps I am biased against giving any credit here whatsoever.  I am open to that.  #6 can certainly be called an attempt at an Eden.  I'm just not kidding when I say for the architect's sake I hope they never admit that.

Let's just call it a "pretty good golf hole".  Because it is that, for sure.

TH

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2005, 04:17:55 PM »
I played a course in Las Vegas about 8-10 years ago called "The Badlands" which is a Miller designed course.

It is a perfect name for the place.  I don't think any other comments are necessary.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Matt_Ward

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2005, 04:22:30 PM »
I too have played Badlands and concur with the comments raised by a few already.

However ---

The Miller portfolio is a bit more than just that course. His work at Thanksgiving Point, Due Process and I'll also include Entrada at Snow Canyon in St. George, UT are good efforts --especially the first two I mentioned.

Frankly, very few architects / designers, if any at all, hit home runs with all their efforts.

johnk

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2005, 04:34:34 PM »
OK.  I think I missed my chance to pick that book up from the Ed G. sale-o-rama, but I am quite happy with what I got :)

I think we're talking a matter of degree - you think there's a big difference because of all of the things that add up to make the Eden the finest par 3 in creation - and I agree that from that point of view there are lots of subtle things that add up and make the holes different.  I'm also not claiming that the hole competes with the Eden on any level...

When you ask a little kid to draw an airplane, you get a pretty reasonable drawing that anyone would identify as an airplane, but you'd never want to fly in one that was made from the actual drawing.

I think the copy holes are like that too.  They'll never recreate the subtleties, and 99% of holes that are copies never compare with the original.

But for the general-public non-GCA 10k poster golfer, something like #6 at ER is going to give them a good amount of the sense of what it's like to play the Eden.  

Not that they care :)  I've stood on that tee and told strangers that it was a copy of a famous hole at St. Andrews... <crickets chirping, air hammers hammering> ... blank stares...

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2005, 05:49:21 PM »
I too have played Badlands and concur with the comments raised by a few already.

However ---

The Miller portfolio is a bit more than just that course. His work at Thanksgiving Point, Due Process and I'll also include Entrada at Snow Canyon in St. George, UT are good efforts --especially the first two I mentioned.

Frankly, very few architects / designers, if any at all, hit home runs with all their efforts.

Yeah, what does that Bill Coore fellow really know........

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2005, 06:54:56 PM »
Tom,
    Don't worry, we won't be calling you Aretha anytime soon. :) When I was out in NJ last month, you should have seen what George was telling me was a Road Hole at Essex CC. I just can't think that abstractly.

John,
    The blank stares are because those golfers know what the Eden looks like, and #6 at ER is NOT it. ;D
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How's Johnny Miller as an Architect?
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2005, 08:50:04 PM »
Re: Badlands in Las Vegas

I describe it as the best or worst example of target golf that I've seen. Depends on your point of view about target golf.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

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