[Jonathan Cummings]

Sam - I completely agree with you.  I've said before a number of times on this site that Stranz does his best work with limited real estate (Tobacco Road, Caledonia).  Give him a wider canvas and he spends money on art form not golf.  

If you can get on it a far, far better choice for interesting GCA in the Richmond area is Kinloch.

Your comments about Hunting Hawk are interesting.  I know of the course but have not played it.  I will my next time through Richmond.

JC

[Michael Plunkett]

If you are farther north, Bobby Weed's Cannon Ridge located on the north side of Fredericksburg is a great alternative.

hmmmm, I like Weed!  Have to check it out ... another road trip.

Okay- set for Williamsburg tomorrow. My buddy and I have been looking at the extended forcast for two weeks now. It has gone from chilly rain, one day sun- to one day rain and three warm sunny days to not quite warm (50- I'll take it after the winter) and cloudy.

People- for mercy sake-  stay away from those weather sites. My stomach is in knots-   LOL.


"You expect Climate.....you get Weather."  

[ChasLawler]

If you can get on it a far, far better choice for interesting GCA in the Richmond area is Kinloch.

Your comments about Hunting Hawk are interesting.  I know of the course but have not played it.  I will my next time through Richmond.

JC

Jonathan,
If memory serves me correctly, you played the River course at CCV not too long ago. What did you think of it? I also believe Sam is a member at Kinloch, so getting on probably isn't too much of an issue.

[Dale_McCallon]

I'll second Sam's assessment of Hunting Hawk.  I went a few years ago with some absolute novice golfers.  Chose the course because the cost was not going to hurt these guys too much, and I walked away with a big smile on my face.  Can't verify the fast and firm part, it had rained all morning, but the course is a truly neat place.  

Played RNK a few years ago and enjoyed it, but can't be real specific on holes.  Stonehouse seemed like it sits on about 5000 acres--the cart drives are sooooooo long.  I did like a few holes--Hell I almost made a hole in one there.  Should be my all time favorite!

[Sam Sikes]

Here's the link to Hunting Hawk.  It is not that special on a national scale, but very good on a local scale, IMO.

http://www.huntinghawkgolf.com

[Jonathan Cummings]

Cabell - My day at CCV was better than I could have hoped for.  I played with a hung over DOG and Club Manager, both who had been up to all hours the previous New Year's Eve.  We carried our bags New Years morning in shorts - it was 75 degrees.

I loved the course - especially the back nine.  It's one of those many classic layouts you could play forever.

Sam - if you are a member at Kinloch you are a lucky man.  You may have as good a modern course as it gets.

JC  

[Paul Richards]

Anyone else out there who loved RNK until they got to the last three holes?

 

[mike_beene]

Seems like the pro at Stonehouse told me they had 14 miles of cart trails.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Anyone else out there who loved RNK until they got to the last three holes?

 

I didn't find anything wrong with 16.  17 is so-so and doesn't fit and 18 doesn't fit either.  It's not a bad hole for a different kind of course.

Seems like the pro at Stonehouse told me they had 14 miles of cart trails.

Royal New Kent has 13 miles of cartpaths.

I walked both courses (not on the same day  ).

It's not as long walking vs. riding, walking down the fairway, but it's still up there.

[Jonathan Cummings]

I written articles on both Stonewall and Cannon Ridge.  To say Cannon is a great alternative to RNK is a bit of a stretch.  Pedestrian is a better description.  I know and like Weed (he has quite a history) and hope the second effort at Cannon comes out better.

Scott - you may be the only person in history to have walked Stonehouse.  I took a stop watch and measured the accumulative time I spent in a cart (start the watch as you drive from green to next tee, stop the watch - play the hole, restart it for the next green-to-tee cart drive, etc).  You spend 45 minutes driving the cart including one 3/4 mile drive between one green and the next tee!!

You can have Stonehouse.

JC

[Jerry Kluger]

If you played Stonehouse without a yardage book and without the fairway markers you would have no clue where you're going.  Talk about lost balls, you'd think you were in the middle of the fairway only to find out that the treeline cut in and you had lost your ball in the woods.  It is a fun course with some interesting holes but absolutely nowhere near the course that RNK is.  

I like 16 and 17 at RNK although they do not have the same feel as the rest of the course.  In fact, I have a recollection of a hole at Bull's Bay that had a similar green complex as number 17 with the stream in front and the green set back a bit in the trees. Strantz has addressed the issue with 18 and it was a result of water issues which he had to deal with.  I think the reason that 18 is so disliked is not only because it is out of character from the rest of the course but it is so penal with any sort of a wind.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott - you may be the only person in history to have walked Stonehouse.  I took a stop watch and measured the accumulative time I spent in a cart (start the watch as you drive from green to next tee, stop the watch - play the hole, restart it for the next green-to-tee cart drive, etc).  You spend 45 minutes driving the cart including one 3/4 mile drive between one green and the next tee!!

Almost.  When I played Stonehouse in 1998, 2 years after it opened, the starter said he'd only heard of 4 people who had walked the course before me.

It took me 3:45 to play it, on a summer weekend afternoon, and that was after waiting behind a 5-some on the first 3 holes.  Would have taken ~3:30 without that delay.

When I walked SH and RNK, both were the 2nd round of the day for me.

Yes, my sanity has been questioned for walking those courses.  

[Tom_U]

Wow! Ask a little question, get tied up at work, come back to the sight, and find more information than I can fairly digest.  Though utterly confused, I'll report back on what I ultimately  decide (for whatever it's worth), which may end up being touring Civil War battlesites given the conflicting opinions .
Thanks for all the advice and commentary.
T

[Matt_Ward]

Paul R:

Royal New Kent is a delicious course until you get to the final few holes -- then it's like what happened to the ending for a great film / course.

I have to wonder if the artistic expressionists like Mike Strantz feel obligated to tack on a few more "bells and whistles" and don't realize that Royal New Kent has already made the sale for the first 15 holes -- he didn't need to go into overdrive.

Sometimes the best thing to do after a course sells you on its qualities is to back away and don't get caught up with the extras that don't work. If ever a course cried out for some natural tweaking to fit into the pattern of the bulk of the course it's the ending few holes at RNK.

Given a bit of tweaking the course has some of the finest holes you can play (a grand opening trio indeed!) in the MidAtlantic region and could be a contender for national honors.

We shall see ...

[ChasLawler]

Cabell - My day at CCV was better than I could have hoped for.  I played with a hung over DOG and Club Manager, both who had been up to all hours the previous New Year's Eve.  We carried our bags New Years morning in shorts - it was 75 degrees.

I loved the course - especially the back nine.  It's one of those many classic layouts you could play forever.

JC  

Jonathon,
I’m glad you liked the River. The back is indeed a little stronger than the front. Interestingly the back and the front were part of two different courses – the Hill and the Valley respectively – which Flynn originally proposed for the club. Unfortunately both weren’t built. The club ended up using nine holes from each design to create what is now the River course. I often wonder how good the entire Hill course could have been had it been built. Lester George’s renovation work has been well received overall by the club, although I’m not a big fan of the new par 3 fourth hole. But like you said, it’s a great place to play every day.

[JESII]

Two questions:
1) What is it about 16 and 17 at Royal New Kent that are out of character with the rest of the course?


2) How do you feel about the routing at RNK?
-knowing the most likely answer, how does that effect your opinion of Stranz's work there?

[ChasLawler]

Two questions:
1) What is it about 16 and 17 at Royal New Kent that are out of character with the rest of the course?


2) How do you feel about the routing at RNK?
-knowing the most likely answer, how does that effect your opinion of Stranz's work there?

1. I don’t think 16 is that out of character. 16 is a damn hard hole IMO with a fantastic green. I can’t see how it’s any more out of character than #10. 17 sort of transitions you into 18 – it doesn’t really have any of the RNK signature bunkers, and seems to play a bit more like a parkland course. Even the green is rather dull in relation to the rest of the course.

2. The routing is hard to quantify. On one hand, each hole, individually, is very well done; but overall there’s just too much real estate between the holes. Maybe Strantz had to deal with some future housing plans – which still haven’t popped up by the way – but I would never want to play there every day for the lone fact that it’s really unwalkable. With the exception of Stonehouse – I’ve never seen longer distances between holes. It’s really a shame too, because there really is a lot going on architecturally at RNK, and sadly most everyone driving along in his or her cart misses it. It’s a great walk (tee to green), but just too much for most mortals between holes.

And I don’t really buy the whole story on why the 18th hole is the way it is. For all the money they spent on cart paths out here, why not just route the 18th hole away from the lake and clubhouse – avoid the island/waterfall finish altogether? Shoot – the golfer has already driven10 miles through the woods to get form hole to hole, what’s another 3-5 minutes after the round?

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