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Mark Brown

Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« on: March 06, 2005, 10:17:22 PM »
Although some of Dye's humps and mounds and bunkers may be over the top, if you focus on the contouring of his fairways, greensites and putting surfaces that direct play are pure genius. Living in the Hilton Head area, I have spent a lot of time at Long Cove and Colleton River's Dye Course -- which is greatly under-rated, probably because not enough knowledgeable writer, raters etc. haven't played it. Sometime soon I'll post photos.

As Tom Doak well knows, the shaping at Long Cove is its greatest virtue. If you read the shapes and then execute the shots they direct you to play you have won at least half the battle. Much of the time, you should not play directly at the middle of the fairway or flag stick, as you will end up somewhere else.

The shaping around the greens is intriguing, but the movement of the fairways is equally, or more, impressive. The variety of holes is also incredible as he takes you from one environment to another in a seamless manner -- from authentic Lowcountry to shades of Scottish links holes that meld gracefully into the landscape. I think the only that has held it back a bit are somewhat uninspired nature of the 16th and 17th holes, which aren't bad, but not quite up to the standard of the other 16.

Photos of Colleton River to come.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2005, 10:29:51 PM »
I have had shapers that trained with Dye for the last 15 years.  Ever know Jim Harbin, Joey Cagle, Mark White, Steve Luciola, Jeff Jones(MPCC).  Good guys and good shapers.  I agree, he has trained some very talented shapers and in most cases they were never on a dozer until he put them there.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2005, 10:31:00 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark Brown

Re:Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2005, 11:50:12 AM »
Come on guys. No input on great shaping of courses by Dye or others. Who else is good and why and where?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2005, 01:46:09 PM »
Mike:

I had no idea that Steve Lucciola was still in the business.  Please tell him hello for me!

Mark:

What did you want us to comment on?  That subtle fairway shaping you speak of is usually the work of the shaper with just a little input from the architect ... some of the guys who work for me are so good that I really don't say anything to them about it.

The key is to have guys who understand it's supposed to look natural and imperfect.  There are lots of great equipment operators who make everything too rounded and even, presumably to show us all how good they are on the equipment ... those are the guys we have to avoid.

At Long Cove most of the fairway shaping was done by P.B. Dye with help from Scott Pool and Ron Farris, both of whom were turf interns from Lake City Community College at the time, and both of whom have designed a half-dozen courses on their own since.

Mark Brown

Re:Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2005, 03:07:03 PM »
Tom,

I just think the shaping at Long Cove is exceptional and affects the shots into and around the green a lot. Rarely are you aiming at the most visual target on the fairway or the pin.

Was also wondering what philosophies you and C&C use in  shaping that affect the way holes play. I know it's done on site, but what do you train your shaper's to do before you leave them on their own. Also, of the golden age architects who stands out and why?

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2005, 03:36:09 PM »
Mark,

Of the Golden Age architects, Wm. Flynn immediately jumps to mind. I haven't seen Indian Creek yet, but reports I've received indicate that it's a masterpiece of artificial construction.

Clearly, Dr. MacKenzie had a talented for orchestrating golf course contouring as well.  

As for modern guys, I can speak from personal experience.

It's a lot of fun shaping for Rod Whitman, because he lets you go without much instruction; particularly at holes where his own initial design ideas aren't firm. Rod will allow someone to be creative at roughing in contour and other features in order to spark new ideas in his own mind. Then he gets on the bulldozer himself to tweak that initial roughing shaping as he sees fit. It's an interesting methodology only certain golf architects are able to employ.

Rod's done some amazing contouring and shaping work in his career. Besides some of the neat stuff we accomplished at Blackhawk recently, check out Wolf Creek, and Friar's Head. Bill Coore credits Rod with working out the all-important transition contouring and tie-ins between the dunes and field.  
jeffmingay.com

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2005, 04:54:58 PM »
Ron Whitten seemed to like Dye's work at Colleton River...  See his article here:

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/colleton.html

Mark Brown

Re:Pete Dye - Master of shaping
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2005, 09:49:12 PM »
Thanks Jeff, I love talking, and walking, with Bill and I need to get up to Friar's Head ASAP.

Mike,
I'm really looking forward to playing The Ocean Course in a couple weeks (with the SC rating panel) as I haven't seen all the changes.

I agree with Whitten about the Dye Course at Colleton River and am going to try to get more people here to play it. As a 9 handicapper if I had to pick one home course I would pick Colleton, with Long Cove a close second. At Colleton, the front nine is routed through a beautiful forest of live oaks with small greens, and the back is a wide open links-style nine with bigger greens and enough wind to make it fun. You have to play well to score but it's not penal and doesn't beat you up. And easy to walk.

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