[Evan Fleisher]

Played it, loved it...for many of the reasons listed above.  just a fun place, with interesting shot values and makes you play a variety of different type shots.

A quick tip to keep the costs down when playing there, or anywhere else in Hawaii...get the first TWILIGHT tee time of the day.  Generally, you will finish 18 in the light and pay half the going rate.  Has worked for me every time.

[Dr._Katz]

To:  T. E. Paul

Your failure to appear at our last two appointments indicates that you no longer feel the need for my services; I strongly disagree, but it's your life and peace of mind at risk.

As evidence of your continuing problem, I refer you to your gratuitous attempt to interfere in a spirited dispute on this thread between a nice, well-spoken elderly lady who calls herself "Grumpy Old Man" and our own in-house snobmeister JakaB.

OF COURSE Barney is a snob!  That's a major part of his appeal.  Reverse snobbery, while insideous and sometimes difficult to detect, is one of the most virulent forms of the condition.  If you read his posts carefully you can detect the joy he takes in it.  I thought you were too big a person to attempt to deny one of life's most important pleasures to a long-time GCA associate.

Please reconsider resuming your therapy.  You know my number.  

[Dan King]

TEPaul writes:
Did you see all those things that "Grumpy old man" said about you? He even questioned your Libertarianism (are you one of those like Dan King is?).

Well, I don't know if any of what he said about you gets under your skin or not but I noticed he said you were actually practicing snobbishness!


I'm not speaking for JakaB, but why would someone posting who is scared to use his real name going to get under anyone's skin? So what if this anonymous poster doesn't like the game he plays called cart-ball. He obviously doesn't feel strongly enough to sign his name. He's a joke.

And Tom, you seem to be missing a key point of being a libertarian. Libertarian doesn't mean you can't take a stand on issues. I think cart-ball has been terrible for the game of golf. I do not believe carts should be made illegal. Two completely different, and unrelated, issues. I see no inconsistency in saying cart-ball and golf are two different games and believing in libertarianism.  

Dan King

Maybe it's time to propose that golfers refuse to play courses where they are forced to ride. Now this idea has absolutely no chance of gaining ground because a generation of golfers is being raised who think that walking is the oddity. They'll read in some old golf magazine that former USGA president Sandy Tatum  once called golf by cart "cart-ball." And they will think, "who was that old fogy anyway?"
 --Lorne Rubenstein

[TEPaul]

DanK:

I see no inconsistencies in saying cartball and golf are two different games and being a Libertarian either. I don't recall saying that Libertarians can't or don't take a stand on issues, I was just wondering if JakaB was a Libertarian as you say you are.

I love it when people take stands whether they're liberals, Libertarians or anonymous posters. Frankly, I think all carts should be made illegal and everyone should be forced to walk on all golf courses. It's healthier and if they can't walk they shouldn't be allowed to play golf. I think Kapalua should be redesigned by Tom Fazio and have all it's tees made no farther than 20 yards from the previous green and I even thing that all Hawaians should be made to play under the CONGU system and not be allowed to have a handicap until they post at least three stroke play tournament rounds played under the strict rules of golf. There're far too many cheaters and handicap bandits in those Hawaian Islands and the USGA should refuse to put up with it.

I also take a very firm stand in my belief that Dr. Katz is a complete quack!

[Grumpy Old Man]

Dan,

I don't ever ride. So by your definition I don't play "cartball". But for some reason I am not bothered by people playing golf however they want. I also don't care what people wear on the course. I also don't care how many clubs they carry. I don't care if they use the USGA handicapping system. Why would I care? Even if I could afford to ride, I like the exercise of walking.

Sounds like you like walking the course.  But I suppose you drive to the course so you can take your clubs and still have plenty of energy to walk the course. Good planning. You have to be really careful to use motorized vehicles only when going to the course, not on it. One kind of riding is morally defensible and another has the effect of altering the universe in a horrible way. Give me a break.

It says a lot about the psyche of someone who feels the need to criticize the leisure time activities of total strangers. Oh I know, it's called "taking a stand". Yeah sure. Well, grumpy old men do that all the time. But really it is just whining. When the day comes that you are not able to find a golf course that allows you to walk out of all the courses in your area, then you have a beef. But your beef will still be limited because this is a world of supply and demand. Do Libertarians believe in supply and demand? I don't have to tell you this but until you own your own golf course, you will have to play in the world of supply and demand. Until then, why not play your game and let others play their game without being such a dark cloud?

Golf is a lot like the radio Dan. Just switch to the station that plays the music you like and enjoy it. No point in telling the Barry Manilow lovers that anything but opera is noise. It just makes you look grumpy. You aren't turning into a grumpy old man are you? I can tell you, it ain't no fun.

"Live and let live". I don't suppose you have that quote cued up on your data bank.

Signed,
Grumpy Old Man, as anonymous as BarneyF used to be.

[Dan King]

C.B. Macdonald wrote:
I don't ever ride. So by your definition I don't play "cartball".

Yeah, I believe you. Scared to let anyone know your name, but standing up for how you play golf. You are a funny guy. Can't hardly wait for your next anonymous strong stand.

Dan King

"You can't learn too soon that the most useful thing about a principle is that it can always be sacrificed to expediency."
 --W. Somerset Maugham

[JakaB]

I did notice during the funeral my friend played "cartball" from the viewing area to the outside steps....I would suggest for the purists out there to request an arrangement of gorse on each side of the casket with a number of your friends carrying your casket the full way into and out of the parlor or church...bagpipes playing in the background would not leave a dry eye in the place.

Its so difficult anymore to have an experience thats truly first rate....and I'm sorry if I think something like a poor site that requires less than ideal distances between holes may make a truly fun course something less than great...but my friends funeral wasn't too bad...even though seeing the combination of emotion and effort the pall bearers would have needed to carry the casket down the isle...would have touched me that particular day....its just so much the same as I imagine walking down the 18th at Kapalua with the ocean in front of me taking in the day with wasted breaths compared to a cart ride that may be best saved for the X games.

I know we are pretty damn lucky to have a little fun or good in our lives...but great should be respected for what it is...or isn't.

[DMoriarty]

Mr. Old Man,

You speak as if golf course architecture is a to-each-his-own world where walkers and passengers coexist and commingle in peace.  That may be the case on the micro level, but not on the macro.  This sight is about golf course architecture.  In contemporary golf course architecture truly walkable tracks are becoming rarer than persimmon drivers and Pink Lady balls.  This diminishes the quality of the architecture and the experience of the game. Go back to the spirituality thread and find out what percentage of those supposed spiritual epiphanies were witnessed from a behind a cart pew.  

I don't begrudge anyone a cart ride, if that's what they prefer.  And I am not pure on the issue myself (a good bloody blister is enough to put my butt in a cart.) But it pisses me off when designers and developers repeatedly try to force me into a cart.  

As for Kapalua, I love it and think it is a tremendous layout, especially for the difficult site.  But I have to admit that BarneyF makes a valid point. Why should I suddenly forget about one of the core golf values when evaluating Kapalua?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Gee, all this time I thought JakaB's original rant was a poke at all of the walking proponents who jumped in the cart at Barona last year, despite walking being allowed to all.

[Bob_Farrell]

Doug Wright:

Sorry it took me a while to respond to your note but I've been away, unforunately NOT playing golf.

I had an awful day there for many reasons. There was a foursome in front of us, and contrary to someone else's post, they had caddies. They were horrible and we waited on every single shot. They also never even considered letting us play through.

After the front nine, I told one of the Assistant Pros about them and he refused to approach them, even though it took us 3 1/2 hours to play the first nine holes, which was the back side.

The same continued on the front, and after 6 hours 45 minutes, myself and one of the fellows I was paired with drove in from the 9th tee. My wife and daughter were waiting for me in Lahaina for lunch, and it was now 2:45. Yep, that's right, I teed off at 8:00. Imagine how screwed up the course was for the whole day because of these jerks.

Hey, the layout as I said, is spectacular. In spite of my anger I still have a modicum of knowledge and appreciation for course architecture. I just thought that some of the rolls were too unfair and simply led one into the native stuff. I'm a 6 handicapper now, and was 3 then (1998), and didn't actually play badly. The greens were too severe for my liking. As I also said, I thought it more closely resembled a miniature golf course from that perspective.

Perhaps I'd try it again, but I don't think I'd go out of my way to do it.

The worst part of it all..................I treated myself to the round on my birthday!!!!!

Best regards.

BF

[Doug Wright]

Bob,

As The Wizard (disguised as a guard) said to Dorothy at the door of the Emerald City, "Now that's a horse of of a different color!" Are you kiddin' me?  6:45? That's gotta be a record.

I'd have been done after 9, demanding my $$ back.

I can see why the course is not high on your list (or maybe near the bottom) given that experience.  If I'd only played it once with anything near that treatment I'd be reticent to return. However, there is a LOT of good, fun golf to be played there under "normal" conditions. I don't think the greens are goofy at all--there's ample grain and slope on the property and you have to get used to it. Maybe that's why I'm suggesting another shot sometime would be worth it.

All The Best,

[Bob_Farrell]

Doug Wright:

Well I guess I can never say never. I mean what if I got invited to play in the Pro-Am to the Mercedes?

I'll keep an open mind on it.

BF

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bob,

A suggestion for next time something like this happens.  Just drive on through the offending group and come back to play the hole you skipped.

[Bob_Farrell]

Scott:

I'll certainly keep it in mind, but my immediate reaction would be to drive OVER them, not through them

BF

[Rick Shefchik]

Scott -- I think that's a terrific suggestion, and I hope I can remember it and put it into practice this summer when I'm confronted with the same situation (it happens a couple times a year, probably to everyone here.)

We are so conditioned in this game to play them in order and finish what we started that we tend to lean on our drivers and fume, waiting in vain for the clods to do the right thing, rather than simply jump ahead and put ourselves out of the misery. It feels like we're being cheated out of the contiguous 18-hole experience -- and why should we suffer, rather than the offending parties -- but I have found that many upsetting experiences on the golf course tend to fade away the smaller they get in your rear-view mirror. Thanks for the common sense.

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