[Nigel Islam]

Owl Creek could fit that profile. 

Anyone know what year the now defunct River Road Country Club was built?  It's a nine holer a little closer to downtown that was quite old.

I think RRCC was built around the turn of the 20th century, so that would eliminate it from the "mystery". Course seemed to be constantly flooded, due to it's proximity to the Ohio River. The city bought it about 10 years ago and turned it into a dog park.

With respect to Owl Creek, I think it was George Davies who is responsible for the design. He also laid out the original routing for Big Spring, New Albany (IN) and, later on, Harmony Landing, in Goshen. Most, if not all of these courses, were original 9 holers.

Yes it is not River Run. River Run was built as the LCC in 1895 I believe, then became Standard Country Club until 1955 when the current SCC was built.

Owl Creek has this very interesting green complex on the sat images. It looks like a double green and the southern most hole parallels another hole ala 9&18 at Southern Hills. Probably a stretch of imagination to think Perry might have done it. Nothing on their website nor is there anything on the Rolling Hills course in Paducah.

[Dale_McCallon]

I've been away from the site for quite a while, but imagine my disappointment when I see Bogey finally comes to the promised land and doesn't give me a call!!

I still haven't played Princeton CC, but I'm glad my recommendation of Heaton's Gas Station/BBQ was taken.  And for Bogey's Food Tour, I will now recommend Trollinger's BBQ/Food Mart in Paris TN.  It's waaaay more upscale than Heatons, but for about $6 you can get enough food to feed a family.

And yes, the mutton they serve in Owensboro is not to be found in these parts.

[Nigel Islam]

Dale, do you know anything about Rolling Hills CC in Paducah at all?

[Dale_McCallon]

Nigel,
Played there many, many moons ago and don't remember much at all.  I played several rounds at Paxton Park in Paducah.

It's a muni that hosts the biggest tournament in the area (I think Kenny Perry won it once or twice?).  Not a great course, but good vibe with a few fun holes and you can certainly see some characters there.

Played Paducah CC a few times. Think its a RTJ course. Usually in great condition (particularly for this area), but considering most people around here rave about it, I've always been kind of disappointed.

Drake Creek is another public in the area.  Pretty nice to place to play. A few real duds crammed into the back 9 but worth playing if in the area.

[Ed Oden]

Nigel, sorry for taking so long to follow up.  I found references to both Lake View/Rolling Hills in Paducah and the Louisville course in articles in Oklahoma newspapers.  Maxwell lived in Ardmore, so the local/state papers tended to cover his comings and goings regularly.  Rather than bogging down this thread with unrelated articles, here are links where they can be found...

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/12128370373_fe234a87b5_k.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/12023778846_45d53fdb8c_b.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2878/12128779716_531881829f_o.png

When I found the article mentioning Louisville, I asked David Cronan to do some digging locally and we couldn't come up with anything that really fit, unless some club there has their history all wrong.  One other possibility is that the Louisville mention was just a botched reference to Paducah.  But, other than both being in KY, the two places are nowhere near each other, so I am inclined to discount that possibility.

[Nigel Islam]

Ed, I found the following paragraph in "The Enclycopedia of Louisville," on Google Books which mentioned a few courses I did not know anything about:

"By the late 1920s the local communities provided the home for 14 courses including Crescent Hill Course, Big Spring CC, New Albany CC, Standard Oil Golf Course, Producer's Wood Pre Co Golf Course, Owl Creek CC, Jefferson CC, L&N CC, and Shawnee Golf Club. "

Earlier in the article it had mentioned Cherokee, LCC, Standard CC (the now defunct River Run site), and Audabon CC so I count 13. I was not familiar with Jeffereson CC, PWP, Standard Oil GC or that a course predates the 1952 L&N CC that is now called the Crossings. Nobody knows who did New Albany although I think it dates to 1922 and is actually in Indiana. It was a very prestigious club at one point.  Probably as always creates more questions than answers.

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel, sorry for taking so long to follow up.  I found references to both Lake View/Rolling Hills in Paducah and the Louisville course in articles in Oklahoma newspapers.  Maxwell lived in Ardmore, so the local/state papers tended to cover his comings and goings regularly.  Rather than bogging down this thread with unrelated articles, here are links where they can be found...

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/12128370373_fe234a87b5_k.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/12023778846_45d53fdb8c_b.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2878/12128779716_531881829f_o.png

When I found the article mentioning Louisville, I asked David Cronan to do some digging locally and we couldn't come up with anything that really fit, unless some club there has their history all wrong.  One other possibility is that the Louisville mention was just a botched reference to Paducah.  But, other than both being in KY, the two places are nowhere near each other, so I am inclined to discount that possibility.

Ed I would agree that any mention of a Maxwell course in Louisville would very unlikely to be referring to Paducah.

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel, sorry for taking so long to follow up.  I found references to both Lake View/Rolling Hills in Paducah and the Louisville course in articles in Oklahoma newspapers.  Maxwell lived in Ardmore, so the local/state papers tended to cover his comings and goings regularly.  Rather than bogging down this thread with unrelated articles, here are links where they can be found...

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3672/12128370373_fe234a87b5_k.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2830/12023778846_45d53fdb8c_b.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2878/12128779716_531881829f_o.png

When I found the article mentioning Louisville, I asked David Cronan to do some digging locally and we couldn't come up with anything that really fit, unless some club there has their history all wrong.  One other possibility is that the Louisville mention was just a botched reference to Paducah.  But, other than both being in KY, the two places are nowhere near each other, so I am inclined to discount that possibility.

After hearing the description and taking into account the period, Ed and I thought the logical candidate would have been LCC. However, after speaking with several friends and older members, there is zero reference to Maxwell in their archives or documented history.

The plot thickens........

David,

I  always thought LCC was a Travis with Langford & Moreau doing some work there....

Do you know much about Owl Creek or the old L&N club? I wonder what Jefferson CC and PWP were as well? I think if Audabon or Big Spring were under the influence of Maxwell it would have found its way to the surface.

Maybe we could do a playing recon mission some time David

[Sven Nilsen]

Ed, I found the following paragraph in "The Enclycopedia of Louisville," on Google Books which mentioned a few courses I did not know anything about:

"By the late 1920s the local communities provided the home for 14 courses including Crescent Hill Course, Big Spring CC, New Albany CC, Standard Oil Golf Course, Producer's Wood Pre Co Golf Course, Owl Creek CC, Jefferson CC, L&N CC, and Shawnee Golf Club. "

Earlier in the article it had mentioned Cherokee, LCC, Standard CC (the now defunct River Run site), and Audabon CC so I count 13. I was not familiar with Jeffereson CC, PWP, Standard Oil GC or that a course predates the 1952 L&N CC that is now called the Crossings. Nobody knows who did New Albany although I think it dates to 1922 and is actually in Indiana. It was a very prestigious club at one point.  Probably as always creates more questions than answers.

Nigel:

The four courses you note (Jefferson, PWP, Standard Oil and L&N) do not appear in any of the Annual Guides from the late 20's, although PWP does appear in the 1938 Golfer's Year Book.  I'm curious as to when that Encyclopedia was printed, and what their sources are for these courses.

As for the early Louisville CC/Standard Club, I have a date of 1897 for Louisville CC, and a date of 1911 for Bendelow's work at Standard Club.  Did Bendelow redo the existing LCC course, or was this a completely new course?

Sven

[Adam Warren]

Crescent Hill is a 9 holer that is currently probably a 5-10 minute drive from the old River Road course that I am showing was founded in 1926 and opened in 1928.  I have little to no knowledge of what the course is like, only roughly where it is and the timelines I can find online. It is currently owned by the city of Louisville.  I am finding no information about the architect, but apparently it is a bit unique in that the course has 3 par 3's, 3 par 4's, and 3 par 5's.  Perhaps this could be our course.  

I wish there was some historical document about the golf courses in Louisville because there are so many, and many of them are 1960s or older.  Many have changed names many times.  Would be an interesting read for a local, especially when we are talking about some of the names we have never heard of like Standard Oil, PWP, Jefferson, etc. 

I wonder if Standard Oil and Standard CC are being mixed up in some way. 

LCC is a Travis.

I believe Bendelow was the guy on Audubon.  Someone may want to double check me, but I don't think he had anything to do with the others.

[Nigel Islam]

Sven,

    As I understand it, the Louisville GC and Louisville CC merged their two rudimentary golf courses from the 1880s into the Louisville CC at the Zorn Avenue site that has been the site of three different clubs. This was 1895 and Cheorkee GC was also formed the same year. The LCC incorporated in 1897. In 1910, nine holes were built for the LCC at their current site. C&W says this was done by Robert White. The Travis society says Tom Bendelow did this in 1908. White would have been a touch young, but did do nine holes of Cincinnati Country Club at some point so who knows. Bendelow makes more sense to me as he built Audabon CC in 1908 and remodeled Cherokee around this time as well. When LCC moved, Standard CC took the Zorn Avenue site. I don't believe Bendelow is associated with this site. In 1950 Standard moved to its present site designed by RB Harris and the Zorn avenue site became River Run CC. This is now a dog walking park.
    Travis added nine and redid the other nine at LCC in 1924. At some point thereafter Langofrd and Moreau worked on LCC as well as Audabon. Bill Diddel, Ben Whiry, and Keith Foster have also apparently walked on LCC. One of these days, I am going to talk my way on the property and find out a little more.

I got the encyclopedia stuff from Google books. It has to be circa 1990 based on some of the details.

This is the LCC site: https://www.loucc.net

[Nigel Islam]

Crescent Hill is a 9 holer that is currently probably a 5-10 minute drive from the old River Road course that I am showing was founded in 1926 and opened in 1928.  I have little to no knowledge of what the course is like, only roughly where it is and the timelines I can find online. It is currently owned by the city of Louisville.  I am finding no information about the architect, but apparently it is a bit unique in that the course has 3 par 3's, 3 par 4's, and 3 par 5's.  Perhaps this could be our course.  

I wish there was some historical document about the golf courses in Louisville because there are so many, and many of them are 1960s or older.  Many have changed names many times.  Would be an interesting read for a local, especially when we are talking about some of the names we have never heard of like Standard Oil, PWP, Jefferson, etc. 

I wonder if Standard Oil and Standard CC are being mixed up in some way. 

LCC is a Travis.

I believe Bendelow was the guy on Audubon.  Someone may want to double check me, but I don't think he had anything to do with the others.

It's hard to imagine Crescent Hill being a prestigious project although I suppose one could say the same about Melrose. I don't believe Crescent Hill was ever private though. As far as Standard Oil, I certainly believe that they were different courses. We know where SCC was at the time referenced it was on Zorn Avenue. It would be interesting to know where Standard Oil itself was in Louisville. I might be able to find that out. Perhaps a Rockefeller private course in Louisville? Ha.

L&N is more intriguing. The current Crossings course by I 65 on the South side was built as the L &  N in 1952 by the railroad. Where would it have been prior to this if not by the railroad? Did a different course exist on the same site?

[Sven Nilsen]

Crescent Hill is a 9 holer that is currently probably a 5-10 minute drive from the old River Road course that I am showing was founded in 1926 and opened in 1928.  I have little to no knowledge of what the course is like, only roughly where it is and the timelines I can find online. It is currently owned by the city of Louisville.  I am finding no information about the architect, but apparently it is a bit unique in that the course has 3 par 3's, 3 par 4's, and 3 par 5's.  Perhaps this could be our course.  

Crescent Hill is attributed to A. McKay.  You have the dates right.

Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Crescent Hill is a 9 holer that is currently probably a 5-10 minute drive from the old River Road course that I am showing was founded in 1926 and opened in 1928.  I have little to no knowledge of what the course is like, only roughly where it is and the timelines I can find online. It is currently owned by the city of Louisville.  I am finding no information about the architect, but apparently it is a bit unique in that the course has 3 par 3's, 3 par 4's, and 3 par 5's.  Perhaps this could be our course.  

Crescent Hill is attributed to A. McKay.  You have the dates right.

Sven

Shawnee and Seneca are attributed to Alex McKay as well. All three are munis that have always been munis as I understand it.

[Sven Nilsen]

Nigel:

The Louisville CC history seems to be all over the place.  Where do you get the 1880's dates for the CC and the GC?

Also, a little while back Jim Kennedy found an article noting Ross having involvement with the club some time prior to 1916:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58323.msg1367778.html#msg1367778

As for Travis, his involvement didn't take place until 1924 (at least according to the Travis Society), and that he renovated 9 holes and came up with plans for an additional 9 holes that were never built.  They also note the original course was done by Bendelow in 1908.

There are other names I've seen associated with the course, including Robert White (date unknown) and L&M (1921).

As for the original Louisville GC and CC, here's what I have:

GC - Date of 1897, although the 1899 Guide notes it was formed in 1896.  The 1900 Harpers notes it was laid out by Lawrence Tweedie in 1897.  It appears in the 1908 Golfers Guide, but not in the 1916 Annual Guide.

CC - An attribution that it was laid out by H. Tweedie, but it does not appear in any of the early guides.  This could be the course you noted as having been combined with the GC, which would later become the Standard Club.  The CC is first noted in the 1916 Annual Guide, with a date of formation of 1909 (my guess is that this is the course that was laid out by Bendelow, which was a separate course from that laid out by Tweedie).  

The Standard Club also first appears in the 1916 Annual Guide.  This makes sense, if the Standard Club was the new name for the GC.  However, the Bendelow listings have both Louisville CC (1905) and The Standard Club (1911).

Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Sven,

It would appear I have messed up the somantics some. From the LCC site:

"Situated on 190 acres overlooking the Ohio River, LCC dates back to 1908. A continuation of The Louisville Golf Club, organized in 1895 and later incorporated in 1897, LCC remains at its current site since the completion of the existing building and golf course in 1910. All of the club's facilities have been renovated several times during the past 90 years allowing our club to be the host of countless prestigious social and sporting events during this time."

The 1880s stuff is like most 1880s stuff I have read very vague. I guess what we know is that the Louisville Golf Club was formed in 1895, and the course was built in 1897 on Zorn Avenue. It would appear that I was wrong about the name and it was in fact the Louisville Golf Club. In 1908 the Louisville Country Club was formed and the course and building were completed in 1910. This would make sense if Bendelow laid the course out in 1908 and the clubhouse wasn't completed until 1910. I don't think Bendelow had anything to do with the Zorn Avenue site unless he did some renovations.

Do we have a Travis society guy on GCA? It would be interesting to see of Travis even did much of anything at the current LCC site.

[Nigel Islam]

The Standard CC site corroborates much of my last post. I can't tell if Country Club of Louisville did exist at a site prior to the Zorn Avenue site which was Louisville Golf Club's. I am guessing based on the website history that they did not.

"Standard Club has been a part of the Louisville Community for well over a century, since just after the Civil War. Records of the exact date of the Club’s founding were lost in the flood of 1937 when the Ohio River destroyed the Standard Clubhouse, then located on River Road. Surviving records indicate the Club was founded as a social organization in 1873 and public records show the Club was incorporated in 1885.

The Club was reported to have first been located at 639 South Fifth Street and remained there until it relocated to South Third Street. There are also reports that the Club maintained a clubhouse on Chestnut Street. At these locations the Club operated as a town club primarily for dining, entertainment and social functions.

In 1910, the Club members decided to relocated to acquire a golf course. Standard rented property from the Louisville Water Company on River Road at Zorn Avenue which included nine holes of the golf course formerly occupied by Louisville Golf Club, which had merged with the Country Club of Louisville to become Louisville Country Club, and relocated to the east. Standard’s first golf professional was Bobby Craigs who came from Scotland. In 1914, the Clubhouse burned and was replaced by a clubhouse built next to the golf course."

[Philip Caccamise]

Dale, do you know anything about Rolling Hills CC in Paducah at all?

One of my golf buddies' family are members there. He tells me it is a short and fun layout always conditioned well that favors good putters over anything else. Oddly enough, despite playing hundreds of rounds growing up there he is crazy long and a terrible putter.

[Adam Warren]

I have not found anything on A. McKay in regards to Crescent Hill.  Also, I believe Seneca was built much later than CH.  Not sure on Shawnee.  Not taking the time to look. 

The thing that sticks out to me about Crescent Hill is that early 1900's it was described as something of a getaway for the wealthy of Louisville.  Description of the area being for summer homes and the like would lend to the "pretentious" description associated with the article from earlier.

I believe I have seen someone with a Travis society tag in the forum before.  Very interested to hear about his association with LCC as it has always been billed to me as our "only Travis design" in the state. 

Interesting you mention about the Rockefeller type course.  Is anyone aware of "Papa John" Schnatters course on his property.  I have seen some of the Google Earth images in passing.  I wonder who did that work if anyone of significance.  I believe Rick Dees also has a personal course on his property in the Danville area.

[John Mayhugh]

I grew up about ten miles from the course though had never played it until after I picked up golf in college.  I did not see any of the evolution of the design, but have played 50+ rounds there over the years (none in the last couple).  I always felt like holes 2-10 were a bit different from the rest.  Before GCA I did not realize why.

Jerry did a really nice job with the greens on the newer nine as they don't feel out of character from the originals.  The original holes seem clearly superior to me.  I think the non-Perry routing is amateurish with too much dependence on trees, and a more recent club change to convert a par 4 to a par 5 (the 7th) is awful.

The 13th green has always looked the most Maxwell-like to me.  Perched on the top of a hill, it slopes from back to front and right to left.  There's a significant roll on the green to complicate putting from one side to the other. 

From front left


And the rear



Mike,
Those cart-balling locals do see people walking the course (riding is much more common as you observed), but Princeton is a small town and they were likely wondering just who you were.  As Jerry pointed out, there is fairway irrigation.  Unfortunately, bermuda in the area did not come out of winter very well this year, so fairways look rough in places. 

Did you take home a bottle of the Heaton's bbq sauce?  That style was popularized locally by a place called Knoth's, but I've never had anything quite like it outside of the area.

Dale,
I'm also disappointed to hear that Mr. Hendren visited Princeton without warning.  I would have tried to join him or at least have facilitated a non-trespassing visit.  

[Nigel Islam]

John,

13 was my favorite too. I birdied it

[Richard Hetzel]

Michael,

So you went through all the trouble to trespass (I like it) and you didn't take any photos of the course at all???

[Nigel Islam]

From Ed Homsey of the Travis society regarding LCC:

"As I indicated earlier, we have an extensive file on Louisville including considerable 1924 correspondence between Travis and Louisville, and the contractor doing the redesign work.  Much of what we have came from exchanges with a Louisville CC member. 

LCC was founded in 1908.  In 1910, they hired Tom Bendelow to help locate a new golf course site.  Here is where things get a little murky.  For some time, folks at LCC thought that Travis laid out the early course, but they found documents that indicate Bendelow was probably the person who did the original 'staking' out of the golf course.  We are certain, however, that Travis did major redesign work on the first nine holes of the "North" course, including redoing all of the greens.  His correspondence details the work that was done.  Travis's invoice includes work done from Sept 1924 to July 1925.  Total bill was $3,000.  In addition to the redesign work, Travis designed an 18 hole course for LCC that was never built.

Several architects have been involved in redesign work at LCC.  Keith Foster was the most recent, and from personal correspondence with him, he was very sensitive to the role that Travis had played there."

[Jim_Kennedy]

A few articles on Louisville CC:

More Ross at Louisville CC -   "With The Golfers"
https://www.newspapers.com/image/119278867/

Standard GC/Louisville CC merge
https://www.newspapers.com/image/119314734/

Standard Club, CC of Louisville,  Louisville GC
https://www.newspapers.com/image/118837852/

LGC/CCL transfer land to Standard Club -  "Country Club Transfer Filed"
https://www.newspapers.com/image/119558406/

Country Club's Links Open -  Bendelow and Egan offer suggestions
https://www.newspapers.com/image/119569611/

Bendelow and Egan named as designers in club meeting - Change Suggested in Louisville Course"
https://www.newspapers.com/image/121704774/

Name of holes at LCC - "Audubon Club Pro"
https://www.newspapers.com/image/118752155/

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