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Mike Hendren

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Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« on: December 04, 2004, 01:49:39 PM »
In another thread Patrick Mucci mentioned Kentucky Dam Village being a Maxwell design.  Western Kentucky GCA correspondent Dale "Tater Salad" McCallon has stomped the grounds 200 times but sites nothing to write home about - likely Press' work circa 1950 that was altered by the state a few years back.

Dale did mention Princeton Golf & CC to the east, noting that Princeton, KY is the birthplace of Perry Maxwell.  Cornish & Whitten date his birth at 1879 and indicate he lived there 18 years before moving to Oklahoma.  Apparently Princeton was built in the 1930's.    Neither it nor Kentucky Dam Village is mentioned by C & W.

I'm stopping by Tuesday to check it out.  The nice lady I spoke with on the phone had never heard of Perry Maxwell.  Anybody familiar with it?

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Nick Pozaric

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Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2004, 09:54:23 PM »
heck i live in Louisville and dont even know where Princeton KY is:), just kidding.  Good luck and let us know what you find out

Don Dinkmeyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2004, 10:21:39 PM »
I live in BG, KY and admit I did not know of this course. Will be interested in your report.

The general area of Land Between the Lakes is beautiful - I'm going there for a conference in the spring..

Chris_Clouser

Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2004, 08:50:01 AM »
Mike,

I have tons of info on Princeton CC.  Also, KDV.

Maxwell designed the original 9 holes at Princeton as a favor to the town in the early 1930s.  He met Grayson Marshall, who was attending U of Michigan, while working on the U of M course.  He soon was hired by the a group of investors to design the course.  He charged them for the labor.  He laid out the design and had Dean Woods actually handle all of the construction while Perry worked at U of M.  The original course had only grass bunkers.  I can give you more info if you like.  Just e-mail me.

Maxwell also did the original course at KDV, but it has been renovated a couple of times.  The third and ninth holes might be the best of the bunch.  It is an ok course.

Neither course would be on my must play list but not for my Maxwell research.

Chris Clouser

THuckaby2

Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2004, 11:39:16 AM »
I live in BG, KY and admit I did not know of this course. Will be interested in your report.

The general area of Land Between the Lakes is beautiful - I'm going there for a conference in the spring..

Don - does BG stand for Bowling Green?

My in-laws were born and raised in Russellville and Bowling Green is the big city they would go to when it came time to, well, go to the big city.  They speak of it VERY fondly.

I went to Russellville once and really enjoyed it.  Being born in Los Angeles as I was, well.. small towns like that are really neat to me.  People were very nice to me also - even AFTER they found out I was from California.

The birth of both of my kids was announced in the Logan Leader...

OK, that's enough.  I just couldn't see this area mentioned and NOT comment.

Mike H, if Princeton is anywhere near Russellville, be a gent and drop in and say hi to my wife's grandmother...   ;)

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2004, 05:47:40 PM »
Tom-
Let's start a discussion on the Russellville CC! Actually haven't played there but have enjoyed my share of a local delicacy called a 'Hot Brown' in the dining room.

I get down there about once a quarter so I'd be glad to stop in tell the in-laws hello.

Buck
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Don Dinkmeyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2004, 07:41:28 PM »
I live in BG, KY and admit I did not know of this course. Will be interested in your report.

The general area of Land Between the Lakes is beautiful - I'm going there for a conference in the spring..

Don - does BG stand for Bowling Green?

My in-laws were born and raised in Russellville and Bowling Green is the big city they would go to when it came time to, well, go to the big city.  They speak of it VERY fondly.

I went to Russellville once and really enjoyed it.  Being born in Los Angeles as I was, well.. small towns like that are really neat to me.  People were very nice to me also - even AFTER they found out I was from California.

The birth of both of my kids was announced in the Logan Leader...

OK, that's enough.  I just couldn't see this area mentioned and NOT comment.

Mike H, if Princeton is anywhere near Russellville, be a gent and drop in and say hi to my wife's grandmother...   ;)

Mr. Huckaby  :D,
Yes, beautiful Bowling Green - home of The Hilltoppers, the corvette plant, and much, much more. We are the big city for miles around, and being on I-65 puts us close to Nashville and more...

Mr. Wolter  :D,
A "hot brown" is proof you know this area well!

http://whatscookingamerica.net/Sandwich/HotBrownSandwich.htm

Dale_McCallon

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Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2004, 08:41:28 PM »

For all of those who are no doubt mapping out their way to Princeton...some local knowledge.  Some the best BBQ (not that mess floating around in sauce) you will ever eat is available there in a gas station right off the West KY Parkway.  Not exactly Emirils in atmosphere, but absolutely delicious.

Huck,

You should come out to Russellville more often--we may look at people from California a little strange...but we know not everyone is lucky enough to be born in the Bluegrass State.  Did you feel kind of like Michael J Fox in Doc Hollywood?

THuckaby2

Re:Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2004, 09:16:10 AM »
Buck/Don/Dale:

My mother-in-law has tried to describe a "hot brown" to me and as she has become quite the foodie, cookbooks are all over their house... including several on various regions of southern cooking... so I have even read all about the delicacy.  Still, she assures me I am not worthy to actually have one, and she refuses to try to recreate one for me here.

And heck yeah I need to go to Russellville more... as a matter of fact we may well go there next summer to visit grandma.  If we do, but of course I will go the country club, as they call it.  But again, that's if I am found to be worthy.  I've only been married into this family for 12 years now and the jury is still out.  See, my "people" being from California, well... that is most definitely two strikes against me.  

 ;D ;D ;D

In any case, though both in-laws attended Vandy, there is always a soft spot for the 'Toppers.  Every once in awhile they rise up in hoops and oh yes, there is joy throughout our part of San Jose.

And Dale, well I didn't feel exactly like MJ Fox, I am not that cool... it was odd how at home I felt.  I think I was born in the wrong place.  

 ;D

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2014, 02:12:25 PM »
Having cancelled my planned visit ten years ago, I recently visited Princeton Golf & Country Club.    In the intevening years I had received several pages of information about the course's history which were the victim of a residential cleansing.  I recall that school boys had been employed in the construction of the original nine and that the second nine was added when property became available in the late 50's.  Hopefully Chris Clouser will see this thread and chime in.

My visit was curious.  No one had picked up the phone in my numerous attempts to troll for access.  As any red-blooded access hound would do I simply showed up on a weekday.  Late morning and not a car in the lot.  Curiously, several groups carting it around, often consisting of a foursome each piloting his own ride.  The definitive sign of a true "country" club.  I checked every door to the clubhouse and they were all locked.  A pristine concrete swimming pool was similarly unmanned and unoccupied.  I would later learn that the de facto start and end of the course is at the confluence of the 13th and 16th greens and the 14th and 17th tees, hard by a gravel parking lot and two rows of cart-barns with corrugated plastic sheeting for doors.  It felt like home. Notwithstanding my highest respect for property rights, I am embarrassed to admit I proceeded to the first tee and got on with it. I'll make them a check and hope that it will clear the bank some time in the next month or two.  Fortunately I had the Ping Moon bag in tow.  I repeatedly drew stares from other players once on the course, likely attributable not to my unfamiliarity but rather the fact that I was likely the own grown man to walk and carry seen in the past several years.  

On to the golf course.   There no fairway irrigation - exposing the likes of Pinehurst #2 as wannabees.  Decent fairway turf was mixed with bare spots and common bermuda, playing firm and fast.  I had hoped to readily determine the Maxwell holes but it wasn't that simple.  Sometimes the farmers are up to the task.  Given the locale of the clubhouse, I concluded that one nine consisted of the 1st and 11th through 18th holes.  They lacked the antiquity one would ascribe to Maxwell's work in 1931.  Coupled with the clubhouse architecture, I'm purely speculating that those holes and the clubhouse were constructed after the original nine.  The greens were also quicker and firmer and the teeing grounds were narrow pushed up runways for what that's worth.

The remaining holes - 2 through 10 had much more interesting greens and a more curious and compact routing.  Very sharp doglegs at the two shot 3rd and 4th, though likely more graceful in the absence of large trees on the inside of the doglegs.   A relatively large break in the routing occured between the 9th and 10th greens perhaps suggesting an original clubhouse in this location.  The greens generally sloped from front to back with the 4th and 5th greens having interesting contouring.  The pond shared by the 2nd and 9th looked a little too big for its britches so I'm guessing it was not original or likely was much smaller.

Nonetheless a nice 2:45 walk and decent variety of holes, interupted by clumsy and perfunctory bunkering on occasion.  No more than a Doak 4 for those of you who like to keep score, maybe less if you didn't grow up playing country golf.

As for the barbecue, Heaton's did not disappointed.  It is in a Marathon gas station/convenience mart.  I drove by it 3 times but knew I was in the neighborhood from the aroma.   Thankfully, it was pulled pork, not the mutton the Owensboro colonels swear by.  $6.50 for a plate plus a drink from the cooler.  I hold pulled pork to a high standard, choosing to rate it without sauce.  This was a 6 but actually improved to a 7 with a very unique sauce that I quite liked.

Overall, a good day.

Chris, please weigh in and let me know how absolutely wrong my assumptions are.

From the road,

Bogey

« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:18:39 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2014, 03:55:45 PM »
I love reading posts like this (and can relate to "country golf"). 

That's an extreme way to save money on wages, just don't have any employees work. 

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2014, 04:16:01 PM »
Perry Maxwell and son also did Lincoln Homestead State Park Golf Course in Kentucky as well. 

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2014, 05:13:22 PM »
Perry Maxwell and son also did Lincoln Homestead State Park Golf Course in Kentucky as well. 

Sort of, I think they did work on the greens as I understand it. Its a decent course. Nice setting.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2014, 05:22:35 PM »
The front nine closest to the clubhouse and the road are the original Perry holes as I understand it from Chris Clouser. The other nine was added in the 1980s. I too thought that 2-10 were the original nine when I played it. Doak 4 might be a tad generous, but I liked it as well. At one point I counted seven players on one green.

How did you play "Amen Corner" Bogey?

Mike Hendren

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2014, 05:55:02 PM »
Nigel, I knew I would be exposed as a fraud but hey, aren't we all when it comes to golf architecture?  I overthought it apparently.  Chalk one up for the farmers.  5-5-4 through Amen Corner thanks to two cold topped second shots, one with a wedge :-X.  Very good green at the par-3 - better than anything Perry designed there!

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2014, 08:16:44 PM »
Nigel, I knew I would be exposed as a fraud but hey, aren't we all when it comes to golf architecture?  I overthought it apparently.  Chalk one up for the farmers.  5-5-4 through Amen Corner thanks to two cold topped second shots, one with a wedge :-X.  Very good green at the par-3 - better than anything Perry designed there!

Bogey
j

Both par threes on front are very good. I still hold hope those are Perry's holes. I can't remember if I looked at historic aerials for PCC. I lost focus and went 6,5,3.

Philip Caccamise

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2014, 11:21:59 AM »
Home of the reigning US Womens Amateur champion, Emma Talley. That girl can light it up!

Ed Oden

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2014, 02:34:30 PM »
Maxwell's original 9 was definitely on the relatively square parcel surrounding the clubhouse and not the portion of the property where the large retention pond is located.  The earliest aerial I have is from 1952 and his routing appears to be intact.  However, there were no bunkers at all that I can see in 1952 (could be there were some in 1930 that were lost prior to 1952) and some of the greens seem to have changed over the years.  Plus, there have been the usual tree plantings lining the playing corridors on what was originally a treeless site.  I would be interested to know if they touched the original holes when the new nine was added.  In any event, I don't believe the Princeton course was one that Maxwell spent much time on.  It looks to me he did the job more because it was his childhood home than anything else.  I've found more on him at other KY locations that at Princeton.  

Nigel Islam

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2014, 02:37:25 PM »
Maxwell's original 9 was definitely on the relatively square parcel surrounding the clubhouse and not the portion of the property where the large retention pond is located.  The earliest aerial I have is from 1952 and his routing appears to be intact.  However, there were no bunkers at all that I can see in 1952 (could be there were some in 1930 that were lost prior to 1952) and some of the greens seem to have changed over the years.  Plus, there have been the usual tree plantings lining the playing corridors on what was originally a treeless site.  I would be interested to know if they touched the original holes when the new nine was added.  In any event, I don't believe the Princeton course was one that Maxwell spent much time on.  It looks to me he did the job more because it was his childhood home than anything else.  I've found more on him at other KY locations that at Princeton.  

Ed,  I am interested to know what other Kentucky locations other than Lincoln Homestead and Ky Dam. Additionally, he might not have ever actually been on site. I seem to remember Chris Clouser suggesting he may have just submitted the plans ala Ross.

Ed Oden

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2014, 10:02:18 PM »
Maxwell's original 9 was definitely on the relatively square parcel surrounding the clubhouse and not the portion of the property where the large retention pond is located.  The earliest aerial I have is from 1952 and his routing appears to be intact.  However, there were no bunkers at all that I can see in 1952 (could be there were some in 1930 that were lost prior to 1952) and some of the greens seem to have changed over the years.  Plus, there have been the usual tree plantings lining the playing corridors on what was originally a treeless site.  I would be interested to know if they touched the original holes when the new nine was added.  In any event, I don't believe the Princeton course was one that Maxwell spent much time on.  It looks to me he did the job more because it was his childhood home than anything else.  I've found more on him at other KY locations that at Princeton.  

Ed,  I am interested to know what other Kentucky locations other than Lincoln Homestead and Ky Dam. Additionally, he might not have ever actually been on site. I seem to remember Chris Clouser suggesting he may have just submitted the plans ala Ross.

He also designed Lake View CC in Paducah, which is now known as Rolling Hills CC.  And then there is a mystery involving a "very pretentious" course that Maxwell was building in Louisville in 1927.  I haven't been able to figure out what course/club it was.  I know he was building it, but perhaps it was never finished...or maybe it's long gone.  Any assistance from the treehouse at solving the mystery would be greatly appreciated.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2014, 11:31:23 PM »
Owl Creek CC in Louisville was built in 1927 and Shawnee & Crescent Hills were munis built around the same time.Big Spring and New Albany CC( in Indiana) were built in 1922 I think. Big Spring was designed by George Davies as near as I can tell. Owl Creek could fit the profile, but only a nine holer. I've not seen the property.

If you have any additional info on Rolling Hills/Lakeview or the Louisville course I would be intrigued by it. Perry never did anything in Indiana or Tennessee as far as I know.

Chris Clouser

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2014, 07:33:39 AM »
Ed is correct.  The original nine holes at Princeton were bunkerless.  Also, the work was done primarily by Dean or Par Woods, Maxwell's brothers-in-law and construction leads.  Maxwell submitted the routing after one visit and came back when the course opened from what I have learned.  The other information about the additional holes by Nigel is correct.  They were done by Jerry Lemons.

As for the Louisville course, I haven't run across anything else since Ed and I discussed it via e-mail a few months back.  There seemed to be a lot of work going on in the city around that time.

Adam Warren

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2014, 10:52:24 AM »
Owl Creek could fit that profile. 

Anyone know what year the now defunct River Road Country Club was built?  It's a nine holer a little closer to downtown that was quite old.

Jerry Lemons

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Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2014, 12:36:35 PM »
Ed is correct.  The original nine holes at Princeton were bunkerless.  Also, the work was done primarily by Dean or Par Woods, Maxwell's brothers-in-law and construction leads.  Maxwell submitted the routing after one visit and came back when the course opened from what I have learned.  The other information about the additional holes by Nigel is correct.  They were done by Jerry Lemons.

Chris, not exactly. I was hired by Jack Pedley, a gentleman and leader in the club at Princeton CC in December of 1984 with a task to to renovate the then very poor bermudagrass greens and convert to Penncross bent.
We cored out all 18 greens and made the modifications all for a total of $68k! We used local help as the equipment was donated by a member.

The entire 18 holes was already there in 1985 and with bunkers. I had heard "farmers" laid out the second nine but could not determine when or by who.

The Maxwell rolls existed on the original nine greens (#'s 1, 11-18), which I kept mostly, and I added some of my own rolls to #'s 2-10. The club has "survived" with small memberships for many years. It does have automatic irrigation on Greens,Tees and fairways.  The bunkers were likely there in the 50's but allowed to grow in I suspect. The pond  on #2/#9 and fairway irrigation was added by the club by super Ray Huff in the 90's.

Still a "country" club, there are few places with such great people in the world than Princeton. I still get notes from members, friends now some 30 years. Ms Mammie's Chocolate pie served there is responsible for some of the extra pounds I still carry around. Best Ever! 


Jerry Lemons ASGCA
Times flys and your the pilot !

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton (KY) Golf & CC
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2014, 03:25:22 PM »
Ed is correct.  The original nine holes at Princeton were bunkerless.  Also, the work was done primarily by Dean or Par Woods, Maxwell's brothers-in-law and construction leads.  Maxwell submitted the routing after one visit and came back when the course opened from what I have learned.  The other information about the additional holes by Nigel is correct.  They were done by Jerry Lemons.

Chris, not exactly. I was hired by Jack Pedley, a gentleman and leader in the club at Princeton CC in December of 1984 with a task to to renovate the then very poor bermudagrass greens and convert to Penncross bent.
We cored out all 18 greens and made the modifications all for a total of $68k! We used local help as the equipment was donated by a member.

The entire 18 holes was already there in 1985 and with bunkers. I had heard "farmers" laid out the second nine but could not determine when or by who.

The Maxwell rolls existed on the original nine greens (#'s 1, 11-18), which I kept mostly, and I added some of my own rolls to #'s 2-10. The club has "survived" with small memberships for many years. It does have automatic irrigation on Greens,Tees and fairways.  The bunkers were likely there in the 50's but allowed to grow in I suspect. The pond  on #2/#9 and fairway irrigation was added by the club by super Ray Huff in the 90's.

Still a "country" club, there are few places with such great people in the world than Princeton. I still get notes from members, friends now some 30 years. Ms Mammie's Chocolate pie served there is responsible for some of the extra pounds I still carry around. Best Ever! 


Jerry Lemons ASGCA

Jerry, either you or the farmers knew what they were doing on those other holes. ;) I think 3-5 is one of the better stretches on the course, and 8 might be the best hole on the course.  1 and 18 were probably the best Maxwell holes for me.

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