[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I am sticking to the thread, you just don't like me pointing out your inconsistencies and absurd statements.

First you say his work is mindless, then you contradict YOURSELF by saying you liked some of his work at Spyglass.

Have you played Chanticleer, Bellerive or Atlantic Athletic Club ?

[Jeff_Mingay]

On a lighter note...

There's an interesting Classic Courses article by Allen Allnoch on The Dunes Golf and Beach Club in the latest issue of LINKS.

Although, it really doesn't "delve" into the course architecture.  

[Mike_Young]

If one is really interested in studying RTJ , I have slides of much of his construction.  My wife's father worked for RTJ (manager of his Florida Golf Construction company) and built his courses for over 30 years including Spyglass.  Got a big box of stuff...just never have really gone thhru it and sorted it out.

[SPDB]

Pat - Focus. What was so absurd about the statement I made, which, after all, was merely an expression of my opinion?

I've not played Chanticleer or AAC. I've played Bellerive. So?

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not a big fan of RTJ, but some of his work isindeed excellent.  I for one like the Cashen course.  It is a shot makers delight but a crooked hitters nightmare.  Peachtree, Chanticleer, The Dunes, The Heather at Boyne, Wilmington South are all courses I love.  However, some of his later courses are more Roger Rulewich than the old man.  RTJ in Va. is a case in point.  Metedeconck may be another.
My biggest problem with RTJ, besides the runway tees, is his use of water as a hazard.  It's just too much and started a bad trend.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I've not played Chanticleer or AAC. I've played Bellerive. So?

SO ?

How do you make a general statement that his courses are SO mindless, when you haven't played a number of them ?

How about Peachtree, Eugene and Old Warson, have you played them ?

Tell us, which of RTJ's 450 courses have you played ?

I'm curious to know about the depth of your experience, the foundation upon which you based your remark.

It will be helpful to know if your opinion is based upon the play of 1 %
or 2 % of his courses, or 70 % to 90 % of his courses.

If it's less then 20 %, then even you can understand the absurdity in your statement.

Then we can determine how credibile your opinion is.[/color]

Tommy Williamsen,

How do you feel about Dick Wilson's runway tees ?

Wayne Morrison & TEPaul,

Did Flynn employ runway tees in any of his designs or did Dick Wilson come up with that idea independent of Flynn's influence ?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat, the same.  I do like Dick Wilson's bunkering better.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Here's an interesting question:

Tommy Williamsen says, RTJ's later courses appear to be "more Roger Rulewich than the old man". Why didn't RTJ, Jr. or Rees become more directly involved with their dad's business as he aged?

I don't ask this critically. Just curious.

I'm not trying to delve into family politics either, but if my dad was a famous golf architect, who lead me into the business, I'd have a hard time watching from the sidelines as a third party took over my dad's name.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Mingay,

I would suspect, because they had each established their own business and their own identity.

Since the design business seems to be non-residual oriented, what would they have gained ?

They each had their own successful practices while RTJ was active and semi-active.

[Joe Hancock]

SPDB,

I've not played Chanticleer or AAC. I've played Bellerive. So?


I'm curious to know about the depth of your experience, the foundation upon which you based your remark.

It will be helpful to know if your opinion is based upon the play of 1 %
or 2 % of his courses, or 70 % to 90 % of his courses.

If it's less then 20 %, then even you can understand the absurdity in your statement.

Then we can determine how credibile your opinion is.[/color]

Pat,

How do you come up with these formulas? Are these in a GCA book somewhere? Do you actually do the math before you post these requirements?  

Joe

[Mike Hendren]

For the record, I absolutely love runway tees.  They're efficient and psychological.  I'm also an unabashed fan of Spyglass after, admittedly, one round there.   On a scale of ten I "rate" it 1.50 higher than Cuscowilla, its close brother on GW's modern list.  A "modern" course that becomes more "classical" as time marches on.  

A quick review of GW's two lists reveals 15 courses built in the 40's, 50's and 60's.  RTJ, Sr. has 7 of those with only Dick Wilson (3) and Pete Dye (2) also having multiple courses.  

One could argue that RTJ, Sr. was a good steward of the profession during this period.  While I don't know, I'm guessing much of his original work remains intact - perhaps evidence of its original merit?

BTW, glad to see someone mention Stone Mountain.  It was the first course I played where the green contours and surrounds really stood out.  Smallish as I recall.  As for the 9th, there was a slight gap in the trees right off the tee.  I vividly recall, after almost 30 years, taking a 3-wood right through it to leave a wedge to the green.  One of the best golf shots I ever hit, back when I could still play a little.

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How do you come up with these formulas? Are these in a GCA book somewhere? Do you actually do the math before you post these requirements?  

Joe, it's called common sense.

If a man has a large body of work, quantified at about 450 golf courses, how can anyone make a qualitative evaluation on that entire body of work if they've only played 2 % or less of  those 450 golf courses ?

It's like the three blind men examining the elephant.[/color]

[Lou_Duran]

Mike, Mike.  You should never allow how you play on a given day to cloud your evaluation of the course.  I too have a very high regard for Spyglass even though I've only played it once.  But to say that it is 1.5 points higher than Cuscowilla, that is pure folly.

Perhaps you should incorporate into your equation that you were playing Cusco with Tom Huckaby, and, naturally, that your normal focus on the course was drawn away by his legend.  Other than that, perhaps you are subconciously including restistance to scoring in your analysis.  If so, you may wish to have Mr. Huckaby put in a good word with his editor.

As to RTJ's tees, they not only look artificial and out of place, but they add considerably to the cost of construction and maintenance.  From a design standpoint, it is a lazy man's way out.  Just make them long and at a slight angle to the fairway and you can claim all sorts of angles and variety.  Personally, I think that if he didn't normally built them up so far, they may have been okay.  I still would like to see a course where there are no tees, just closely mown areas the height of the fairways on the natural terrain.  The have the supt. or let each individual group select a relatively flat spot and go at it.  

[Mike_Cirba]

My favorite RTJ Sr. course is the The Dunes in Myrtle Beach.  For some reason, his "heroic" holes seem to work better there, with more creative options than others I've seen.  The greens are also MUCH more interesting than his standard multi-tiered fare, although I understand they've been f***ing with them in recent years so that might be a question mark now.  

As KFry points out, Green Lakes State Park near Syracuse (one of Jones's first courses) is really interesting and is probably more influenced by Stanley Thompson than most of his later work I've seen, although it's been many years since I've been there.

Metedeconk is the northern version of the RTJ Trail courses...long, punishing, lots of water and rough, and mostly the work of Roger Rulewich.  Shoot me, but I tend to like it anyway, particularly the par fives which are all good to very good.

Stone Mountain's original holes are sound, if not awe-inspiring.  The new nine by John LaFoy is goofy golf, at best.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou Duran,

And how would you propose to handle drainage at those tees ?

Would you build them to USGA green specs ?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

For my own clarification isn't Poipu Bay a RTJ Jr. course?


In Southern California, Valencia is his best known work.  It doesn't rate very high in Southern Cal's best.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat makes a sound point IMHO about people making generalized comments on a person with a limited sample size. Clearly, people can make their opinions known if they have only played one course, but the issue then boils down to the credibility of the person involved in making such wider extrapolations.

I don't know if someone can make broad statements from simply playing a small handful of courses -- say 3-5 from an architect's portfolio.

Clearly, playing more helps and it also helps to have played courses designed over a greater range of time to see what, if any, changes or evolution in style has occurred. This is no different than the broad -- but usually vague -- critiques thrown in the face of Jack Nicklaus or Tom Fazio course designs.

Regarding RTJ -- I am a big fan of The Dunes and I also like Spyglass Hill -- although I do concur that the routing should have used the opening sequence of holes as a closer because of the proximity of the Pacific. The other superb RTJ design that I really like is Mauna Kea -- hard to beat a number of delicious holes there -- the par-3 3rd and 11th are two very solid holes. Too bad the ending hole is a bit of a downer.

During my time in college I always made it a point to visit Grenville CC (Chanticleer) and enjoyed the layout there. There are others as well I could include. Little is said about Hominy Hill in Colts Neck, NJ -- RTJ did this one-time exclusive private course for Henry Mercer and it remained private until his death -- it now is owned and operated by the Monmouth County Park Commission and is one of the finest taxpayer-owned layouts in the USA and has hosted the USGA Men's and Women's Public Links event.

No doubt the involvement of Roger Rulewich (the man behind the Trent Jones "brand" name) had a significant role to play. I'm not a huge fan of Metedeconk, but I appreciate the qualities the course received with the addition of the 3rd nine -- the closing 9th hole on that side is one of the best par-4's you can play anywhere in New Jersey or elsewhere for that matter.

You also have to say that the true identity of the Alabama Golf Trail comes from the hands of Rulewich although clearly he was operating under the banner of the RTJ brand name.

One other hole of note -- the original starting hole at Stone Mountain. Wow! The approach shot to the elevated green that falls ABRUPTLY off the rear is a true gem of a hole.

[T_MacWood]

I prefer early RTJ designs. Those courses had a real artistic flair--an obvious Stanley Thompson influence. Unfortunately I don't believe many these courses have survived in their original form. My favorite RTJ course is right here in Columbus--Winding Hollow (now called Champions). Another interesting RTJ course is Firestone-North, where water comes into play on just about every hole.

[Lou_Duran]

P. Mucci:

They would be drained as fairways are drained- surface with a bit of slope; underground where necessary.  In theory, the teeing area could be as wide as the hole corridor and terrain allow it, and as deep as the supt. decides to mow the grass to fairway length.  

To the best of my knowledge, not many tees are built to USGA spec greens.  If it is a moderately frequented course (30 to 40,000 rounds annualy in a 9 month+ season) and the soil drains well, I would just go with that.  With more rounds and/or poor soils, perhaps a cap of sand would be in order.

I know that this would present a problem for course ratings relative to handicaps.  But this is probably true also of the landing strip tees unless the supt. pays special attention every day to course set-up.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom MacWood makes a good point about the present condition of RTJ courses. Like most Golden Age era designs, a large number of aged RTJ courses undoubtedly suffer the negative affects of natural evolution and redesign these days.

I mentioned the evolved look of Oakland Hills bunkers. They look nothing like they did in 1951 today. And I think the same can be said of Mauna Kea. I recall watching an old Shell's match there, and the bunkers featured lacey edges. I don't think they look the same these days.

I guess my point is, I'd like to evaluate RTJ's best works in their original forms, if possible.  

[Joe Hancock]

I don't know if someone can make broad statements from simply playing a small handful of courses -- say 3-5 from an architect's portfolio.

 

As a case of math gone bad...How does Pine Valley get ranked #1 if we can't apply the above standards?

Do prolific architects get less credit because evrything they do isn't a home run? When it comes to legacy, is it better to do a few good to great courses rather than take on some sites and clients that will only produce average results at best?

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

Clearly, there are individuals whose mark / contribution is limited because they didn't design that many courses. There are many examples -- Crump, the Fownes, Hugh Wilson, etc, etc. In some cases that's helped the courses because there are few, if any, other courses to compare / contrast against.

My point was John made his original statement about C&C layouts being all formulaic. Tommy's response was a good one IMHO -- how many of the layouts has John actually played? I believe the personal experience is necessary and I also believe that playing a fair number of courses adds to one's credibility to make comments on any overlaps, plusses, minusses, etc, etc.

John -- no doubt when someone starts designing a mass of courses -- let's say greater than 15 you have to watch closely and see if they are simply pushing them out like McDonald's pushes out burgers.

No doubt -- some of the older architects had more unique and impressive sites to work with. It also helps that their batting average was limited in the amount of courses (times at the plate) they did. The top tier folks who do "mass" design can often fall prey to repetitive and tired concepts. But, one cannot assume that as both Nicklaus and Fazio, to name just two, have created winning layouts throughout the breath of their design careers. It takes the effort to play them to find out which ones are formulaic and which ones are ground breakers in originality and freshness.  

[Jerry Kluger]

My experience with RTJ courses is limited but does include the Dunes, Metedeconk and RTJ in Mannassas, Virginia, which I've enjoyed very much.   His course which I have always thought a great deal of is the Golden Horseshoe in Williamsburg, VA.  It has a tremendous variety of holes including some wonderful par 3s and only one hole which I really hate, number 2.  There are some really good short par 4s as well as some long and strong par 4s.  The par 5s other than number 2 include number 7 which rolls and rolls and rolls, as well as number 15, which I believe is over 600 yards.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou Duran,

In the fairway, casual water is allowed unlimited relief.

How would you handle casual water at the tee, where you are confined by finite measurements, only two club lengths from the markers ?  

[Andy Doyle]

Mike H:

The trees have grown in and up a little too much to allow a repeat of your corner-cutting shot on #9 at Stone Mountain.   I've put a few over the fence into the driving range trying to get one close to the green.

Mike C:

The new 9 at Stone Mountain - Lakemont - has a number of beautiful holes along the lake with fantastic views of the mountain - and is totally goofy.

Matt W:

Good call on #1 on Stonemont.  Very intimidating opening hole - especially if you have any tendency to go right off the tee.  Undulating fairway tilting to the right with a big ravine that collects anything pushed or sliced.  Visualizing the distance on the approach shot is very difficult - the fairway dips, then rises to the elevated green - but you have to be careful about overshooting the green because of the dropoffs you noted.  This is not a warm-up hole.

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