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TEPaul

Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2004, 09:32:50 AM »
"It's not quite as bad as what was done to the 12th at Whitemarsh Valley (a similar type of par three in many ways), but time and man's hand have not been kind."

MikeC:

I know how you feel about that great Thomas hole, #12 Whitemarsh, and what's been done to it recently with Shearon. That hole may be an excellent one to analyze on here because it might be one of the best examples around of where great classic architecture runs head-long into the realities of today. It's probably true to say if that hole had not been built (routed) where it is on that property the things that happened to it recently would not have to be. By that I mean the proximity of that flanking public road and the constant danger of an accident. Clearly, it's far more traveled than it was when the course was built.

I'm not sure if that greatly influenced what was done to the hole recently but Shearon could sure say. It would be interesting to speculate what the potential solutions could've been to minimizing the danger. One solution that comes to my mind could've been to leave the green and surrounds as it was and simply play the hole shorter for everyone.

I played a lot of tournaments there such as Patterson Cups, Phiily Am and State Am qualifiers and even for a field of good players the thought of danger right did cross their minds going at that hole with clubs like 4-5 irons. If they had 8-9 irons in there hands I doubt the feeling of danger would've been the same. The good news is even with 8-9 irons, the way that hole and green was designed it still would be a very challenging hole!

#12 Whitemarsh may be one of the best examples around where architectural purists and preservationist pretty much have to get as realistic as others. There's just no way to avoid the realities of how times and danger have changed on that particular hole!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2004, 09:44:16 AM »
Tom;

The 12th at Whitemarsh Valley definitely suffers by location next to a busy road, and I understand that something had to be done to the right side.  The mounding that was put there is regrettable, but necessary as you point out.  I'm still not sure it prevents balls from hopping over into traffic, but it's clearly a case of function, safety, and liability overriding aesthetics and architectural purity.  That road is much more trafficked than it was in Thomas's day, no question.

What that doesn't explain is the left side changes.  To prevent balls from rolling down the steep hill into golf oblivion, a series of terraced steps were built up and heavily grassed.  That change took all of the bite out of the mid-length par three, and looks pretty awful, as well.  I know an argument can be made that the further down the hill a ball rolled, the further the pitch back towards the road, but at some point I think a green linen fence becomes a better aesthetic and functional option.

This also isn't meant as a dig to Ed Shearon and his group.  Although I'm not high on the changes to WV, some of it is pretty good, and their original course at RiverWinds in NJ is worth a play and classically inspired in stretches.  I'm also hoping to get down to their new course at Renault Winery in south Jersey (called "Vineyards GC, I believe) this winter.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 09:47:55 AM by Mike_Cirba »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2004, 09:49:27 AM »
Tom,

Is that the 11th green at Cascades?  Glad to see Flynn's original bunkering was far superior to the pedestrian style that exists today.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

T_MacWood

Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2004, 12:22:38 PM »
Mike
Yes. The 11th at the Cascades.

The last picture I posted is the 13th at Rancho Santa Fe (Max Behr). Interesting use of wood planks to shore up the green...very Pete Dye-like.

TEPaul

Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2004, 01:56:59 PM »
That last photo is a hole by my "ultra-naturalist look" Maxie Behr???

Jeeeesus, what was he thinking?? Maybe he was a bit like Donald Ross and just said one thing and then did another. On the other hand, that green does make some sense in a naturalistic way. I can just see Behr out there giving instructions on how to build that green. He probably waved his arms and said; "Guy's look at the flat backdrop line up there across that ridge! Just flat-line the look and line on this here green and match that natural line up there!!"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2004, 07:25:00 PM »
Tom MacWood,

With Inwood sitting on the water, tree removal would certainly enhance the effect of the breezes that sweep the golf course, enhancing the values and merits of the individual holes.

Andy Hughes,

No, the green is not as configured in Tom's photo, it is shallower and doesn't extend to the water.

With respect to Bobby Jones's shot, you don't know if there was a good wind in his face, the type of lie he had, and his thoughts regarding his need to be long, rather then short.

But, the benefits of high tech over 81 years have had an impact on distance.

T_MacWood

Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2004, 10:35:49 PM »
Pat
This gives you an idea of the original openess at Inwood.






Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2004, 01:38:28 PM »
The Raynor hole at Mountain Lake pictured is #8.  This hole is actually named "Raynor" and is currently a par 5 that combines two original Raynor holes.  It uses the tee position of an original par 4 and the green position of an original par 3.  Here is the posted pic followed by a current pic of the green.




T_MacWood

Re:Angular architecture quiz
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2004, 05:36:27 PM »
Jimmy
Thanks for the info and picture...talk about angular architecture...I think your picture winds

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