[Mike Erdmann]

And yes, I too agree with the tradition and walking criteria that GD uses... as I say walking to me is a positive, but not a requirement... and that's how GD does it.. But my apologies, I have made this more about rating than it is surely intended to be.

Tom, I don't want to hijack this thread into a debate on the Golf Digest ratings system, but don't you think the bonus walking points that Golf Digest awards are somewhat bogus?  If you actually look at the ratings breakdown, Golf Digest awards largely cart-ball Pebble Beach more bonus walking points than walking-only Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.  From Golf Digest's own site, the list the bonus walking points as "rewarding courses that allow walking some or all of the time".  

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

I'm just a foot-soldier and I honestly don't know how the editors use the walking criteria.  If it is a bonus and not a penalty, than to me it's a good thing.

One thing though... PB is an easier course to walk than either Bandon course...and to me a more enjoyable walk than either...less distance from green to tee by far.  So I'm not sure what your point is there... I'd give a higher score on walking to PB than either course, for just that reason....

Interesting in that the web site is trumpeting something we are not asked to evaluate.  My take is PB got more walking points than BD or PD because it's a better walk.  And it is.  

But again, I truly have no insight into how the data is used.  I remain just a foot-soldier.

TH

[John_Cullum]

And the Golf digest readership are cartballers!!

[JakaB]

Now that price has rightly been brought into the mix....what great courses are overpriced for their demographic....I personally can't think of any...

[Brian_Gracely]

what great courses are overpriced for their demographic....I personally can't think of any...

Pinehurst #2 @ $300 + caddy.  We're just a bunch of dirt and tobacco farmers down here....cut the in-state residents some slack!  

[JakaB]

Brian,

Can't you play Pinehurst #2 all week this summer for about $80...and if you can't make the Open what is the entry fee for the North/South they host every year.   I could easily play Pinehurst #2 a dozen times a year and think it is the best National Membership in the country for $3600..

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

JBK..Try getting into the North South nowadays..even as a two time in four years state matchplay champion and 3 out the last four state mid-am titles, I was turned down this year!!!

But I get your point.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

I don't limit the number of courses I deem good or great.  Hence, there is no cutoff.  No need to compress a finite number of courses into one category, thus displacing others.

Is a course ranked 101 not great ?  Not good ?

Some time ago I stated that I tended to categorize golf courses as:

Championship
Sporty
Member friendly
Misc

Within those general categories, some of which overlap, I give weight to other considerations.

As an example, two courses might be good courses, similar in many ways, but, one course might be buffeted by almost constant wind, while at the other, wind is not a factor.
Hence, I would make a distinction, and I would prefer the windier golf course.

Each golfer must make their own determination with respect to enjoying and appreciating the courses they play.
I like my method, it suits me, but, I don't try to export it.

[JakaB]

Pat,

I like that system...as far as Championship goes....what championships are you talking about.  I think Bel Air recently hosted the Senior Am...but Bel Air is hardly what would be considered a championship course.   Does that count...

[Sean_A]

John

Now that Pinehurst is in the mix, I have a question.  Is it possible to play#2 without staying at the resort?  I am heading to Raleigh just before Easter and was hoping to play Pinehurst just after Easter.  When I called for a reservation I about choked at the price for two nights, $1150 and #2 has a surcharge of $150.  What the hell is going on down there?  I leave the country for a few years, golf seems to be more elitist and then yall elect Bush-Again!

Ciao

Sean

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

No, it doesn't.

Just because a club hosts a tournament, doesn't mean that I categorize the golf course as championship.

Bel Air would be in the sporty to membership category.
Aronomink would fall into the championship category

[JakaB]

very very good...I agree completely....that would explain why Bel Air is great...in that it easily fits well into two catagories...but it doesn't quite reach the greatness of Merion which fits all three...

[Matt_Ward]

Huck, Mike E, et al:

The aspect of walking receiving points -- whether it be an add-on or penalty -- was simply a belated response by the head honchos at Digest because they got nervous that without such an inclusion the new fangled layouts supported by a good number of their raters would soon supplant the "old guard."

In simple terms it's a prop -- just like the "tradition" scheme developed by the magazine -- much of that came from the Shadow Creek controversey a number of years ago when that club first opened and immediately leaped via panelists support to the first ten of courses nationwide.

None of those inclusions have a thing connected to the core area of emphasis which is the course's architecture.

Gents:

On the Pinehurst #2 score I am a big time fan of the layout but the rates being charged now would make the price the Arabs are charging for oil look like a giveaway!

Sean A:

I believe the opportunity to play #2 is relegated only to those staying at the facility but they may have some wiggle room during the slower winter months.

The surcharge mania is simply way over-the-top IMHO. But, as long as some golfer is willing to pay it then they will continue to charge it.

[JakaB]

Jaka B,

I don't limit the number of courses I deem good or great.  Hence, there is no cutoff.  No need to compress a finite number of courses into one category, thus displacing others.

Is a course ranked 101 not great ?  Not good ?

Some time ago I stated that I tended to categorize golf courses as:

Championship
Sporty
Member friendly
Misc

Within those general categories, some of which overlap, I give weight to other considerations.

As an example, two courses might be good courses, similar in many ways, but, one course might be buffeted by almost constant wind, while at the other, wind is not a factor.
Hence, I would make a distinction, and I would prefer the windier golf course.

Each golfer must make their own determination with respect to enjoying and appreciating the courses they play.
I like my method, it suits me, but, I don't try to export it.

Well Pat...we had a pretty good thing going until we were so rudely interupted by another rater complaining about the ratings.   How do you see a course like Bethpage being sporty...or does a course need to fit all three criteria to be the best of the best...

[Brian_Gracely]

John

Now that Pinehurst is in the mix, I have a question.  Is it possible to play#2 without staying at the resort?  I am heading to Raleigh just before Easter and was hoping to play Pinehurst just after Easter.  When I called for a reservation I about choked at the price for two nights, $1150 and #2 has a surcharge of $150.  What the hell is going on down there?  I leave the country for a few years, golf seems to be more elitist and then yall elect Bush-Again!

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

If you're not staying at the Pinehurst hotels, you can usually only play #2 if you call the same day and get an open tee-time.  Greens fees are anywhere between $250-300 (includes a cartpath-only cart), or you can take a caddy for $60-75.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

I don't see Bethpage as sporty.
It's clearly in my championship category.

I think you're right about Merion, that it does fit in to all three categories, with some modifications.

[JakaB]

Pat,

Don't you agree that for a course to be considered as one of the very most greatest in the country it needs to offer its self up to the USGA for an event at least every decade....it can be something so simple as an Am...but it needs to be something.   The USGA are the stewards of our game and anything less shows a degree of selfishness...

[Tom_Doak]

JK:  I know you don't want to hear from raters, but I thought you would be amused to know that yesterday I received the list of courses that will be on the GOLF Magazine ballot later this year.  I quickly scanned through the list and just checked off the courses which were an absolute slam dunk for my vote as one of the top 100 courses in America.

I only came up with 37 of them; the rest I'll have to sort out from the pack.  [And only one of them was mine.]

[JakaB]

Don't worry Tom....Golf Magazine raters are exempt from any and all rules on GolfClubAtlas...so tell me....have you ever named a hole after yourself....because that is a deal breaker for me...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jaka B,

Pat,

Don't you agree that for a course to be considered as one of the very most greatest in the country it needs to offer its self up to the USGA for an event at least every decade....it can be something so simple as an Am...but it needs to be something.

No, I don't agree with that, for several reasons.

Take clubs in Florida, they're generally at their least playable in the summer when the USGA conducts most of its championships.  That leaves the fall, and overseeding can again, place the golf course in less then ideal competitive conditions.  One onlly has to look at what happened to Seminole and other courses in Florida during this years hurricane season to understand some of the problems.

Likewise for desert courses and courses in the deep south.

Added to that is that the membership may not care about hosting outside events, especially with today's political mandates.

Is Cypress Point now deemed an inferior golf course because they won't comply with USGA or PGA politically correct membership requirements ?

How about Sand Hills and Friar's Head ?
Seminole, Augusta, National and Boca Rio ?

Does the lack of hosting USGA events diminish the merits of these golf courses ?

While I think it's nice that clubs give back to golf, I don't see it as a requirement in determining greatness.

But, that's just my opinion.[/color]

The USGA are the stewards of our game and anything less shows a degree of selfishness...

I don't see it that way.

And, the terms that the USGA demands, might be in conflict with the "will of the membership"[/color]

[Tom_Doak]

John,

I would never saddle a golf hole with my name.

Some fact-checker for one of the golf magazines called me a couple of weeks ago, and among other things asked if the correct name for the 7th hole at Barnbougle Dunes was "Tom's Little Devil."  I told her that must be a mistake; I named it "Little Devil," after the thread Tim Weiman started here about three years ago, but I certainly didn't name it after myself.  In fact, Mike Clayton was the first proponent of turning that hole around to its present configuration.

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