[ed_getka]

Tom,
    There is NO way that you can find 950 random golfers in the Bay Area that know of Pasatiempo.

John,
     Thanks for the feedback.

[JakaB]

Here is an honest list of courses that would be hidden gems if I had never found Golfclubatlas....some of them still are..I don't believe I have ever had a conversation about any one of these course outside the scope of this board..

Apache Stronghold (2000)  
Beechtree (2002)
Beverly, IL (2002)  
Black Creek (2002)
Black Mesa (2003)
Boca Rio (2003)  
Camargo (2000)
The Carthage Club (2001)
Cascades (2003)
Charles River (2002)
Chechessee Creek (2004)
Country Club of Charleston (2000)  
Delaware Springs (2000)
Eastward Ho! (2002)
Ekwanok (2001)
Engineers (2004)
Essex County (2001)
Fenway (2002)
Fishers Island (1999)
Forest Creek (2000)  
Garden City (2002)
Greenville (Chanticleer) (2000)  
Harrison Hills (2000)
Heathland (1999)
High Pointe (1999)
Highlands, NC (2001)
Hollywood (2001)
Holston Hills (2003)  
Huntingdon Valley (2001)
Inniscrone (2000)  
The Kingsley Club (2002)
Kittansett (2002)
Lawsonia (Links) (2003)
Lookout Mountain (2001)  
Lost Dunes (2004)
Maidstone (2002)
Mid Pines (2001)
Monterey Peninsula (Dunes) (2000)  
National Golf Links of America (2003)  
Pasatiempo (2003)
Pine Needles (2001)
Piping Rock (2002)
Plainfield (2002)
Prairie Dunes (2003)
Riverfront (2000)
Roaring Gap (2001)
Rustic Canyon (2002)
Salem (2001)  
Somerset Hills (1999)
Southern Pines (2003)
Taconic (2003)
Talking Stick (North) (1999)  
The Valley Club of Montecito (2000)
Tobacco Road (2003)
Walnut Lane (2001)
Wannamoisett (1999)
Westhampton (2001)
Wilmington Golf Course (2002)
Yale (2002)
Yeamans Hall

[mike_beene]

 To most of the world Gullane and North Berwick,95% couldn't pronounce them correctly.My all time favorite "find" is Mt Mitchell in NC mountains.

[mark chalfant]

Paul  it may be a  course by a major architect far removed
from urban sprawl

or a course by an underapprecited architect overshadowed by
nearby masterworks


Springfield by Ross in Ohio

Sands Point by AWT   on Long Island

Tavistock by  Findlay

[mark chalfant]

Paul, for me a course with four  or five really good holes or
a handful of engaging green complexes can make a trip
worthwhile.


I forgot to mention Mayfield (Barker& Way) in Cleveland and
CC of Troy (Travis).  These two gems are definitely worth a
very long journey. !

[Donnie Beck]

The Knoll = Hidden Gem

[Marty Bonnar]

Sorry to keep harping on about Pitreavie, but:

A MacKenzie Course you and I can play for 30 quid anytime,
only 20 miles from me,
which clearly displays his thought processes for much of what was to follow,

never fails to give me chills.


Additionally, there must be about 200 inland Scottish courses by the likes of Old Tom, James Braid, Willie Park et al which offer similar 'thrills' at similar prices...

FBD.

[ForkaB]

Firstly, the course must be a gem.  This is partly a personal matter—(we all have different criteria for quality).  To me, an overarching way of describing what I mean by the term “gem” is a course that I would and will actively seek out to play again.  The word “again” is important.  One cannot know whether or not a course is a gem unless they have played it.  Even “Top 10” courses.  Trust me on this one………

Secondly, the course must be hidden.  To me this means that it is generally below the radar of even the most fanatic of golf junkies (i.e. us!).  By definition, this also implies that very few of us have actually played the course, since it is increasingly clear that almost any track in the world is open to GCA’ers, if they are polite and/or persistent enough.  To me, being “hidden” adds to the gemlike quality.

My personal list, meeting both criteria, is about 5-10 courses long, all of which I have mentioned at least once on this site.  I shall not mention them again, at least for now, so as to not make them less hidden or less gemlike (at least to me)……..

[THuckaby2]

Tom,
    There is NO way that you can find 950 random golfers in the Bay Area that know of Pasatiempo.

Ed:  there is NO way that you can find 50 who play more than 5 times a year around here who haven't heard of it.

 

TH

[Dave_Miller]

mean to you?

How good does the course have to be?  

If a course is REALLY top notch can it be a "hidden gem"...can it be "hidden"?

Paul:
Hidden Gem to me is in the eye of the beholder.  I often feel that Rolling Green outside of Phila. is a hidden Gem.  Only because it gets virtually no recognition outside the Phila. area yet it is a wonderful golf course.  One of the best around Philadelphia.
Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[Matthew MacKay]

I feel there are two types of 'hidden gems'.

It could be a course in or near a major city that recieves little attention from the general golfing public but is highly thought of by those who understand and appreciate good golf architecture.  You could call this a 'theoretical' hidden gem.

It could also be a course that is far away from urban centres and the highways that connect them.  Very few people make the effort to play or research these courses, even though they may be very good, and subsequently they remain a 'literal' hidden gem.  This doesn't mean they are condemned to this status forever, just look at Crystal Downs and Highland Links.  Highlands was nowhere on the map, so to speak, in Canadian golf circles only a decade ago and now many casual golfers are aware of it.

[ian]

Hidden Gem is a course you have never heard of that has enough good holes on it to blow you away.

The first thought you have after you finish walking or playing the course is how and when can I do this again.


Lookout Point remains my favourite unknown course, due to the amount of first class holes on a course nobody has heard of even in Toronto.

Waskesiu in Saskatchewan is the ultimate Canadian example, but I have yet to find any other person who has played it, due to its very remote location.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Kavanaugh;

Your "hidden gems" list only goes to prove what a crazed bunch of zealots you've fallen in with.  Your mother would clearly not approve!  

I had to count and I've played 22 of them.  So, you see what craziness you're now part of?  Shoot...you're now flying off to places like southern Cal and Georgia backwoods in an effort to see what all the fuss is about.  

I'd be careful if I were you.  Next thing you know you'll be running for Greens Chairman at VN.  

[TEPaul]

"Hidden Gem" means one thing and one thing only. It means the "Fernandina Beach Municipal golf course"!

[TEPaul]

John B. Kavanaugh, you wily old dog you---whatever terrible things I've said about you on this website in the past, even if in jest, have all been retracted and expunged after post #27!

[wsmorrison]

I think Fox Chapel needs to be on a list of hidden gems.  Although many on here know of this great Raynor course in suburban Pittsburgh and David Gookin has posted some terrific threads on the design and restoration, many in western PA have never heard of it.  

On our way out to the National Flynn Invitational at The Country Club in Pepper Pike, OH, Craig Disher and I stopped by Oakmont and Fox Chapel.  We were warmly greeted and shown around Oakmont and Fox Chapel.  While the folks at Oakmont are used to the visits Fox Chapel seemed a bit surprised that anyone outside of the region had heard of them let alone wanted to see the course.  

I got a phone call from the president of the club (I was requested to leave contact info---and secretly worried that I did something wrong) several weeks later and we chatted quite a bit about the course and my interest in studying it (didn't play--just walked it).  He was a bit surprised and pleased at my desire to see the course and favorable regard for it.  I got a clear feeling that the membership and serious local golfers had a high regard for the place but that it remained way under the radar of most in the area and certainly nation-wide.

[TEPaul]

"....many in western PA have never heard of it."

Whoa, Wayne, au contraire. If some golfer in western Pa has never even heard of Fox Chapel he probably doesn't know much about golf! Fox Chapel may not be all that well known to golfers in eastern Pa but out there Fox Chapel is probably as well known as courses like HVGC and PCC are by golfers in eastern Pa.  

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

The reason those guys at Fox Chapel seem to be that way is not because they think their club isn't known---it's because they're doing about a ten times better job of really reaching out for information on architecture than any golf club I've ever seen. The way those fellows are going about their project is about as intelligent and comprehensive as any club I'm aware of and at the end of the day it's going to really pay off for them!

[wsmorrison]

Although I never said that all golfers in W. PA never heard of it, I did get the impression that many had not.  I definitely concede that you know much more about golf in that region than I, your tournament history and long-time position on the PA Golf Assoc brings you out there quite often, so I trust you when you say that those western PAers have the same high regard for FC as we easterners do for Huntingdon Valley and Phila Country.

Speaking with John Yerger III yesterday, Sunnehanna likewise has some real sophisticate and intelligent members that really get classic architecture and maintenance meld practices.  Although they seem to have similar political dynamics that plague other clubs, some of the membership, John seems to in particular, really do understand their architectural history and what needs to be accomplished to maximize the design potential intended by the architect, Tillinghast (or architects in this case as Flynn's efforts have been identified and are highly regarded by those that are in the know).  

So Oakmont, Fox Chapel, and Sunnehanna all are doing a great job researching and analysing their architectural histories.  I'd put The Country Club in Pepper Pike on that list as well.  Seems those eastern Ohioans can get it right too.  A Red State and Blue State doing good things for golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Re: Pasatiempo

I can still remember as a kid, reading Herbert Warren Wind's long introduction to an old GOLF DIGEST - produced book about the best courses in America.  Wind contrasted Augusta National and Pasatiempo, saying that while seldom a week passed when someone did not mention Augusta, it had been years since he had heard any mention of Pasa, "another MacKenzie gem."

Of course that was before Golf Club Atlas.  Nowadays seldom a week goes by without me reading something about Fernandina Beach Muni.

[Lou_Duran]

My definition: a largely unknown or under-celebrated course, often in a far off place, but sometimes extremely private, which is a joy to play.

Shoreacres is one such course.

If a "Hidden Gem" is NOT by definition only from the pre-modern/classical era, then Pine Dunes (Morrish) in Frankston, TX is one.  Wild Horse and Black Sheep, similar in many regards, but of a different genre, are two others.

[Forrest Richardson]

I disagree with Brian's comment that "...a Hidden Gem could be a course or a hole." How wrong!

One decent hole — or even a string — does not make a course. And golf is not about holes alone. It is all about the connections between them and the pace, flow and ebb of the game across a full string of holes that work together to form a larger body.

I agree with those who consider a true hidden gem to be in the eye of the beholder — but the proof is in how much the course catches on and becomes...eventually...less hidden, and more a gem!

[Brian_Gracely]

Forrest,

You're telling me that you're never played a course where you absolutely loved 1, 2, 3 holes, but the rest were just blah!?  and you've never played a mediocre course where you really were just looking forward to playing those 1, 2, 3 holes?

I understand your architectural prespective to try and design courses that flow together as a whole, but if you're telling me that you never play courses that only have a single hidden gem hole, then you play a far better quality of courses that I do.

[Forrest Richardson]

The definition of a "hidden gem" is certainly not a golf course with a few great holes. These holes are not "hidden gems" — they are purely decent holes — even great holes — lost in a sea of average or below average golfing experience...in essence, an average or below average golf course.

A "hidden gem" of a movie is not one with a great chase scene, but lously writing and casting throughout.

A "hidden gem" of a book is not one with a passage experly crafted, but amongst thousands of other words with no meaning or with little excitement.

A "hidden gem" of a restaurant is not one with a fabulous desert menu, but lousy wine options and a chef who farts loud enough that it can be heard by patrons.

[Paul_Turner]

I thought a hidden gem  was somewhere few golfers interested in courses/architecture had heard of, but would be thrilled  to play if it was brought to their attention.
I also assumed  that was what everybody else understood by the expression - so am interested to see the diverse opinions expressed here.

In the CG Doak said something to the effect that he would be surprised if he had missed many hidden gems and then on an interview on this site five years later cited Brora as the best he had missed.   Brora was a hidden gem  in 1996 but I would  argue it is no longer in  2004 thanks to championing by Malcolm Campbell, Ran and others. Similarly, Painswick was very much a hidden gem before Robin Hiseman (in a UK golf mag) and Paul T on GCA  sung its praises.

I really don't think some of the courses mentioned on this thread  qualify, at least by my definition - Silloth and Little Aston for  example make the GB& I  Top 100 lists. I played West Lancs on Sunday - superb links, no pics and little comment on GCA but hardly a 'hidden gem' if demand from American tourists pushes up the summer green fee to almost £100.

I'd love to discover a hidden gem but have so far failed (one or two  good holes don't count). The man who started this thread seems to have the inside track.

What about it, Paul? Which of the courses you've pictured here most qualifies for the palm? Meyrick Park, Ulverston, Windermere, the Colts around Birmingham whose names  temporarily escape me?

Andy

All of the course pics I've posted qualify, to me, as hidden gems.  My favourites are:  Meyrick Park, Harborne, Whittington Heath, Blackwell Perranporth, De Pan,

But all of the courses have some special holes, even if they would not crack the top 100 lists.  The trouble is, for a travelling American, it's difficult to exaust all the very best courses in the Isles and so it's hard for me to state to GCAers that they MUST see this course: time is short, when on holiday.  I do think it's useful to know however, that if you can't get game at "famous" Little Aston, then Harborne and Whittington Heath are just as good (and much better than The Belfry!).

For you Brits on GCA, I'd recommend them all.  Check 'em out when you're reasonably closeby.

Just reading the old historical literature reveals which are the courses worth seeing.  And it was just a question of following the trails of the famous architects.  Obviously Colt the most, but I have seen some lovely courses by Braid, Park and Simpson.

If the NAFFER hadn't lost the pics, I could also have shown you how splendid Parkstone is looking these days, after the tree removal.

PS

When are you gonna get me those pics of Grimsby

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