[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
For me, I think both Talking Stick North and South have more interest architecturally then Shadow Creek. (Please do know that this isn't a knock on Fazio in anyway. It really isn't.)

As a golf course, Shadow Creek premise is to make people feel warm and happy inside. Yes, it does succeed there. But as an architectural masterpiece, it actually takes one further away from the Art of Golf.

In example, as I have stated before, you can wander to the end of Main Street Disneyland, turn left and walk further into the streets of Frontierland. A bit further, and then your in New Orleans Square. Keep on walking past the Haunted Mansion and your in an environment exactly like Shadow Creek called, Critter Country. It was at one time called Bear Country. Only there isn't a golf course anywhere in Critter Country and it hasn't been constructed from a desert plain in Las Vegas. Its been constructed from a just as flat and fetureless strawberry field in Anaheim.

Acheivement in building? Yes, absolutely, but so is Disneyland. As a golf course its pure Fantasyland. (To get there you would have had to make a right turn instead from Main Street.) If they would have built a train around Shadow Creek its reputation as a Golfer's Disneyland would be complete. The only thing missing is Mickey Mouse.

Do I like Disneyland?

Absolutely! Its a place where one can go and recapture their dreams as a child, or simply go as an adult and act like a child, but when it comes to actual terms, is the Big Thuder train really a runaway train? Is the Haunted Mansion really a huanted mansion? Is the Matterhorn bobsled's really running freely from a track thru the snow, from the top of a mountain? Can I really get shrunk to the size of an atom to see an atom? And lastly, does anyone really live on Main Street?

Shadow Creek is the same for me in this regard.

But your right. It was built on the dreams of its marketing genius--The Strip's answer to Walt Disney. He wanted the holes to be representitive in both feel and play as some of the great holes in the Game--In much respect, I feel that he has successfully captured that very well. Fazio is also to be credited. But its not Pine Valley. Its not Augusta and its certainly not in the woods of Lake Tahoe.

For the most part, I would have rather seen what Fazio could have done with Shadow Creek in its own environment, and seen what he could have built there. In the real world of Golf, that would have been something to talk about!

[RJ_Daley]

For the most part, I would have rather seen what Fazio could have done with Shadow Creek in its own environment, and seen what he could have built there. In the real world of Golf, that would have been something to talk about!

I didn't read this whole thread, but the above caught my eye and I don't know that I fully agree with it.  In the case of "its own environment" I feel it falls in the realm of a hostile environment that just wasn't meant for a golf course, period.  

Sure, Las Vegas is the mega fun entertainment center in a rediculous location to begin with.  All infrastructure and resources must be strained to the max to keep the whole shebang going.  

Sure, since they are all out there in full entertainment-gaming mode anyway, they might has well have golf too.  But, where they built Shadow Creek is simply pounding something completely unnatural onto a place where it doesn't belong.  From the before pictures I saw, you couldn't even have a venue with the utility of Talking Stick or Apache Stronghold or other desert courses.  The SC site was devoid of anything of any interest.

I quess since the DI was already a golf course, the net effect is about the same.  I assume it will use about the same amount of water as the old course, perhaps with a little more technology-control for conservation, or recylcing of water.  I guess one way to look at it is that the construction and subsequent maintenance provides jobs and so that is a positive of imposing these extravaganzas (casinos and golf) in the barren desert.

[A_Clay_Man]

PAt, Since you didn't assk... Pinon Hills was built around the same time as SC. It was in the planning stages for several years. During that stage at least two well know archies said a course could not be built on that site. Is that what you mean by challenging.

One to two hours travelling? The course is less than 15 mininutes from the airport.

BTW, Who remembers SC as being out in the boonies?

Not anymore.

The sprawl has reached it. To the extent that the 500 acres adjoing SC, which was bought by SC for 7.5M, is being developed into hundreds of homes. SW sold the parcel for 70+M

The paradox is, how a man with limited sight has such vision.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

There have been lots of sites that were more challenging than Shadow Creek.  The TPC at Sawgrass, which was two feet underwater when Pete started, is just one example.  So are Yale, Lido, and the Stone Eagle course we're doing now in Palm Desert.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

Sometimes I have to question your objectivity.

Tom Doak points out two very hostile sites, Yale and Lido, both of which required massive amounts of earthmoving and money in order to convert into a golf course, the exact same thing that Wynn and Fazio did at Shadow Creek.  Yale and Lido are two golf courses built on hostile, non-golfing sites and so is Shadow Creek.

You praise those courses, yet you categorize Shadow Creek as merely another form of Disneyland.

You praise Yale, which is a confederation of prototype or duplicate holes, yet criticize Wynn and Fazio for trying to create a project in that mold.

I've played Desert Forest, which was/is the darling of the minimalists in the desert.  When it first opened, and I suspect today, given the choice, I think most golfers would prefer to play Shadow Creek.

Tommy, let's face it, once you've seen one acre of flat desert, you've seen them all.  The land Shadow Creek was built on was pancake flat and subject to flash floods.  There were no natural features.  I suspect if Fazio had duplicated TOC or GCGC on that site, his detractors still wouldn't give him credit, claiming he copied other courses, other holes, just like Charles Blair MacDonald, Seth Raynor and Charles Banks did, time and time again.

How can you compare Pine Valley and Augusta to Shadow Creek ?  Pine Valley and Augusta enjoy exceptional sites, with dramatic elevation changes, rolling topography, natural ridges, waterways, etc., etc. ?  Shadow Creek was nothing but a flat piece of barren, arid desert floor, and Wynn and Fazio transformed it into a wonderful golf course, and for that, they deserve credit.

Tommy, it won't hurt to admit they did a great job and that Shadow Creek is a very good golf course, although it may pain you deep, deep inside, just like admiting that USC has a great coach and team this year.  As you know, I feel your pain.

Adam Clayman,

No, that's not what I meant by challenging.
I'd have to know WHY the architects said that, who they were, and what the site looked like.  In the desert, water rights are often THE critical component in building a golf course.

It takes from 30 to 60 minutes to get from the Mirage Hotel to Shadow Creek, depending on traffic.  I played Shadow Creek when it was relatively new and I played it last year.
Golfers, with rare exception, couldn't go from the airport directly to Shadow Creek.  You had to be checked into the hotel first.  I suspect that the walk from the Lobby at LaReve to the golf course won't be 30 to 60 minutes unless you find an attractive diversion along the way.

Tom Doak,

It's difficult to imagine Yale, Lido and TPC at Sawgrass in today's environmental world ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
My references to Pine Valley and Augusta were meant for the holes which Tom Fazio and Steve Wynn have said so themselves that they tried to copy the feel of being at these special places. Its clearly evident at #5, #15 and the approach into #18. I feel that these are the most enjoyable parts of the course. The parts at least I really enjoy the most.  They are not copies, they are influences. Its one of the rare times I have seen Fazio at his very best, and I wonder sometimes why he hasn't tried to do it again. It wasn't that they were trying to copy specific golf holes ala Raynor. It was simply copying their effect and personality of how they fit into it all visually--thats what Fazio is all about, the visual; framed picture.

You know what I think, Fazio needs to get on a dozer and other shaping heavy equipment and create something the way Bill Coore, Tom Doak, Gil Hanse, Mike DeVries and the guys that work for them, actually do. Now that would be a Fazio course that wouldbe worth going to look at. He's got the time now. The children are all grown-up and out of the house. He's the King of the World.

Now's the time for him to get back into the field and create his visions. Let him shape some greens and build some artfully placed bunkers.

Fazio is sort of like USC this year. They're #1, yet they have yet to really play anybody to prove just how good they really are. (Not forgetting Cal, which gave them a great game in a hostile environment) I'm all for looking at the strength of schedule.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
One last thing. Shadow Creek is a very good golf course. Its not a GREAT golf course. As a Golf Club, its a GREAT golf club.  

That has been my point all along.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

I think the problem with your proposition is that you're overlooking or ignoring A primary factor in determining the end product, the client, it's the developer who hires Fazio because he wants the Fazio product he's seen, or heard about. He doesn't want a Coore & Crenshaw or Doak like product.  If he did, he would have hired them.

I found it interesting that Ken Bakst thought enough of Fazio's abilities that he had him look at and offer a concept/s for Friar's Head.  Likewise, I found it interesting that Mike Pascucci initially entertained hiring Nicklaus as the sole architect.  Owners influence the end product, in many ways, and selecting a particular architect is one of them.

In some, and possibly many cases, the owner, the client, may have a preconceived notion of what he wants to achieve, and therefore, he selects the architect that he best feels will produce that concept.

Owners don't hire Fazio to produce C & C and Doak type courses.  They hire Fazio to produce a Fazio style course.

I don't see Fazio entering an experimental phase whereby he attempts to mimic other architects styles.

But, that doesn't mean that architects can't or don't go through an evolutionary processes.

I think you hit on a valid point, the distinction between copying a work and being influenced by it.

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