[TEPaul]

On the Wannamoisett thread, there's a good deal of discussion of how strategic that course plays, particularly in the approaches to the greens and putting and recovering around the greens.

In my mind, the primary reason that's so is because Wannamoisett, like a number of other well known courses (PVGC, Oakmont, Merion East) has very good slope and contour on their greens and they also consistently run very high green speeds and maintain some real firmness on those green.

Real green surface firmness is remarkably IDENTIFIABLE. It's when the green surface only very lightly "dents" to a really well struck short iron aerial shot!

Real green surface firmness on highly sloped and contoured greens with green speeds in the 11-13 range is truly and incredibly intense to play simply because even expert players just can't control the movement of the ball once it hits those greens even with high spin.

But what if those highly sloped and contoured greens at those high green speeds were very receptive whereby a truly well struck aerial shot would pull up dirt on impact? In other words, this is the effect of the other end of the spectrum in really dialing down the firmness factor of those greens.

This kind of combination in the hands of truly expert players is remarkable and vastly different. The fact is with real concentration and imagination they can make their golf ball perform and dance on even high speed greens that's about 1000% different from what they can do when those greens are so firm only a light dent is produced by a well struck aerial shot. Basically their strategies are vastly different from what they face with really firm green surfaces.

These are all interesting ways of producing remarkably different results in "playability" within the overall concept of the "ideal maintenance meld".

Our regional USGA agronomist is doing an in-depth  investigation in what-all can be learned by the differing results of the pitch mark! On highly sloped and contoured greens with the green speeds of an Oakmont, Merion East, PVGC or Wannamoisett

The differences in "playability" between greens that only lightly dent to a well struck short iron compared to pulling up some real dirt is just remarkable and is an area where a really expert player who uses his maximum concentration and imagination can really go to town and is at a distinct advantage!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I was shocked by the incredible number of ball marks and damage caused by them when I played Pine Valley recently.

Can greens be kept firm in areas where heat and humidity exist ?

Are very firm greens only found in climates that can allow for those conditions, and for limited periods of time.

I rarely see firm, fast greens in the spring.
Nor, in the heat of summer, especially August.

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

As usual, an interesting observation and post.
I would imagine the USGA study will look at these parameters, and possibly more:

Plant materiel i.e. grass species
Soil characteristics, physical- particle size and shape play a role
Soil Chemistry
Root structure- mass and depth
Frequency of cultural practices, i.e. aerfying, verticutting, rolling, mowing, etc.
Climate
Irrigation design and implementation
Superintendent's perception of "ideal"
Budget
Budget
Budget

Not neccessarily in that order, of course!

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

I rarely see firm, fast greens in the spring.
Nor, in the heat of summer, especially August.

Pat,

Usual suspect in the Spring is excessive moisture in the soil profile. As for August, when dealling with cool season grasses such as poa annua or creeping bentgrass, they are normally at their weakest in terms of root depth and strength. Therefore, the plant tears more easily, the super is having to use more water to keep the weakened plant alive and so on. The root structure of these cool season greens grasses shrink after the soil temperature rises above a certain point, but I don't remember what that temp is. Somewhere around 82 degrees f , I believe.

One would tend to think that August, being the warmest month, would create the dry/ firm conditions that are considered by most here as ideal. But with humidity, increased irrigation requirements and weakened plants it is usually a month of visible ball marks.

Joe

[TEPaul]

"I was shocked by the incredible number of ball marks and damage caused by them when I played Pine Valley recently."

Pat:

A course like PVGC is very good at achieving green surface firmness as much as is humanly possible but even PVGC can't f... with Mother Nature. The fact is the course and the area has had an inordinant amount of rain recently and they just have to let that residual moisture get out of the subsoil in the greens before they can get back to real green surface firmness!    

[TEPaul]

"Can greens be kept firm in areas where heat and humidity exist?"

Pat:

Up here in the northeast real heat and humidity puts a real strain on maintenance that have poa greens. The stress level is incredible and they have to watch poa like a hawk in those weather conditions. This new A-4 grass, on the other hand, is a whole new world--it just loves heat and dryness. The stress level with A-4 is virtually non-existent compared to poa greens.

[TEPaul]

The new G bent strains are apparently the southern counterpart to the northern A bent strains (A-1 and A-4). Perhaps the ball performed with a skidding effect on those Pinehurst greens because they've just been planted and the root structure and maturity has not taken hold. I always noticed on very new greens in the south even chip shots would bounce much lower and sort of skid. Maturity generally takes care of that, in my experience.

[Donnie Beck]

Tom,

Great observation. It is amazing what you can tell about a superintendents management practices by something as simple as ball markers. You definately have to factor in weather conditions, but for the most part they truely are a " remarkable indicator"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe Hancock,

The reason for my post was to emphasize that firm and fast conditions can only be achieved under certain, optimal circumstances, and that golfers shouldn't pressure their superintendent to achieve firm and fast conditions when the appropriate conditons and factors aren't present.

Firm and fast conditions should only be viewed in the context of the window of opportunity and not as SOP.  

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

I was merely adding some insight and reasoning to your observation. If you'd like, I can be less informative so that your logic can play itself out over a longer period of time.

Joe

By the way, why were you shocked to see the proliferation of ball marks if you understand that firm and fast aren't always possible?

[Brian_Gracely]

At Pinehurst, how much does the strain of grass effect the firmness vs. the sub-air system under all of the greens?  I don't know if they were installed on all the courses, but the last stats I heard said they could get the greens dried within an hour of any rainfall (assuming they don't include recent hurricane).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe Hancock,

Because, at Pine Valley, I think there's an underlying desire to maximize the effort to achieve firm and fast conditions.

Secondly, because I don't think that Pine Valley takes referendums with respect to  course conditions, and as such doesn't need to cater to membership whims as other clubs do.

Thirdly, because TEPaul lives just across the river.

[Brad Klein]

There may be a way to all but eliminate the bal mark problem. Part of the issues, besides the new bent grasses being so susceptible, is that the vast majority of goflers who fix ball marks with a conventional tool do it incorrectly and create more damage than if they never fixed the ball mark.

Jim Achenbach has two articles in the Sept. 18 Golfweek about a new tool and a new way of addressing the problem. It involves a device created by Danny Edwards (former tour player). It's called Green Fix and it allows golfers to fix ball marks by pushing them back rather than garden-gouging them. The whole thing also involves members, monitoring greens, and it works. I'm doing a follow-up cover story piece on it for the Nov. 5 issues of Golfweek's Superintendent News.

Green Fix seems to work.

[Mike_Young]

I am in agreement with Pat that firm and fast cannot be SOP, especially in the south.  Except that some of thhe new ultra dwarf bermudas can give one a fairly consistent firm and fast.
TE,
For good players I think drives in the fairway become much more critical since proper spin is required to work firm and fast conditions.  

[ForkaB]

TEPaul,

I was shocked by the incredible number of ball marks and damage caused by them when I played Pine Valley recently.

Can greens be kept firm in areas where heat and humidity exist ?

Are very firm greens only found in climates that can allow for those conditions, and for limited periods of time.

I rarely see firm, fast greens in the spring.
Nor, in the heat of summer, especially August.

Pat

I am (really) shocked to hear that there are so many unrepaired pitch marks (and the evidence of poorly repaired ones) at Pine Valley.  What sort of "golfers" are playing there these days?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

You didn't read my post carefullly enough.

I didn't say that the pitch marks were "unrepaired", only that the scars were visible and plentiful.

I suspect the typical high volume of play and some rainy conditions combined to cause the problem.

Pitch mark scars aren't caused by firm and fast conditions, and that was my primary point to TEPaul, that not even Pine Valley, can keep their putting surfaces firm and fast every day, and, they have a huge advantage over most clubs, on several counts.

[ForkaB]

Pat

I am surprised that you do not know that pitch marks which are properly repaired soon after they have been made (i.e. when the person making them has reached the green) will be virtually invisible after such repair, and effectively invisible the next day.  The only resaon for greens such as you described is far too many inconsiderate golfers and incompetent caddies (for not politely advising their loops as to proper pitch mark etiquette).

I do read (most of) your posts carefully, Pat.  You should too!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

The incredible number of these pitch marks on each green would seem to preclude your theory.
I can't imagine hundreds of unrepaired pitch marks on each green at Pine Valley.

I think other factors are responsible for them. possibly chemical applications, heat, moisture, etc., etc..

Most members, guests and caddies know the drill at Pine Valley.  This seems to be an anomoly,  but, I know one thing, they can't be caused when the greens are FIRM and fast.

A cute Pine Valley story.
I'm told that a caddy became involved in a debate over club selection with his golfer on the 14th tee.  The golfer wanted to hit less club, the caddy wanted him to hit more club, so as to clear the intervening water.
The golfer made the ultimate choice and chose the lessor club.

As the caddy finished cleaning the ball, he held it up to his face and prior to handing it to his player, addressed it as follows.

"Take a deep breath before he hits you."

[Joe Hancock]

Has anyone else ever noticed on sand based greens and firm/ fast conditions that the pitch mark will discolor in a day or two? It may not break through the surface to the point that the golfer sees a need to repair anything. Yet, the green may exhibit many discolored spots that might give a person the impression that ball marks are not being repaired properly.

Joe

[TEPaul]

Discoloration in greens, whether from pitch markers or anything else, sure doesn't bother me---matter of fact, I prefer it to a monotone green. What bothers me, and I'm sure any other golfer, is when the green surface is pocked and bumpy due to unrepaired or improperly repaired pitch marks. A golf ball rolling across a green surely isn't effected by discoloration from pitch marks or anything else if the surface is smooth but it sure is effected by unevenness created by unrepaired or improperly repaired pitch marks regardless of whether the green is monotone or highly mottled in color.

[tlavin]

There may be a way to all but eliminate the bal mark problem. Part of the issues, besides the new bent grasses being so susceptible, is that the vast majority of goflers who fix ball marks with a conventional tool do it incorrectly and create more damage than if they never fixed the ball mark.

Jim Achenbach has two articles in the Sept. 18 Golfweek about a new tool and a new way of addressing the problem. It involves a device created by Danny Edwards (former tour player). It's called Green Fix and it allows golfers to fix ball marks by pushing them back rather than garden-gouging them. The whole thing also involves members, monitoring greens, and it works. I'm doing a follow-up cover story piece on it for the Nov. 5 issues of Golfweek's Superintendent News.

Green Fix seems to work.

Brad:

I read Achy's piece have two comments.  First, does this tool really merit that much attention?  Second, does it really work better than any other of the million tools?  I got one of the Medinah tools and I must say that I wasn't impressed with the results.  The repair work looked shaggy and relatively impermanent.  It seemed like the tool was abrasive to the leaf blades and the roots.  Whaddya think?

[TEPaul]

I saw a pitch mark repairing thing about a year ago while walking around NGLA with supers Bill Salinetti and Matt Burrows. It was a fairly large rod looking thing and they'd just go BAM--pound it in on top of an old pitch mark and you couldn't even tell one had been there!

[JohnV]

Perhaps someone could invent a piece of equipment that measured the firmness of greens by trying to create pitch marks.  It could be named the "Paulmeter".  If we could get clubs racing to see who could have the highest "Paulmeter" readings, perhaps we could overcome the race for the highest Stimpmeter readings.

[TEPaul]

"Perhaps someone could invent a piece of equipment that measured the firmness of greens by trying to create pitch marks.  It could be named the "Paulmeter".  If we could get clubs racing to see who could have the highest "Paulmeter" readings, perhaps we could overcome the race for the highest Stimpmeter readings."

Don't really need to invent anything new JohnV. All you need to do is grab a couple of really good strong players and take them out on the fairways within about 100-130 yards of all the greens and get them to hit a bunch of really good SWs and PWs at those greens and then go look at the pitch marks those shots create. If most all of them only lightly dent those greens and don't pull up any dirt you're pretty much just where you want to be with green surface firmness.

If you or someone else wants to call that "invention" the "Paulmeter", well then, I, of course would be more than a little flattered!    

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I suspect that the surrounding, tall trees shadow the greens, which results in the retention of moisture in those greens, making pitch marks the inherent by-product.

If those greens were exposed to constant sunlight, I'd imagine that the problem would vanish or be greatly reduced.

Some of those greens are still in the shade by noon and later.

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