Roads crossing holes?

[TEPaul]

I noticed on the Barnbougle Dunes thread Tom Doak mentioned the idea of placing the clubhouse at a particular spot was given up because (amongst other reasons) the road to it would have spoiled the view from a few holes.

How do we feel about roads crossing holes in golf, particularly existing roads on many of the very old courses?

I've always felt some of the old roads (generally internal and not public access roads) crossing some of the holes on old courses are both interesting and add old fashioned character. Not that this means I'd ever actually recommend that a road cross a hole on a new construction course if not absolutely neccessary.

PVGC has app six holes that are crossed by one form of road or another. Merion East used to cross Ardmore Ave 3-4 times! NGLA has two holes that cross a public road. Philly Cricket has some internal roads through the course. Pittsburgh Field Club has a road crossing a number of holes, etc.

One of the reasons I mention this is my own course has a old road (that now isn't much more than a gravel maintenance road) that crosses three parallel holes. About ten years ago on a "inspection tour" Tom Fazio mentioned this old road breaks up the look of our 3rd hole which is a very beautiful hole from a high tee sweeping down into a valley, across a stream and across this old road directly behind it, and should be removed. To TomF's credit, he did say it breaks up the look of the hole but before it's removed someone should look into what that road once was.

Well, I did that and found that that road was actually the old road on which George Washington moved his army from Whitemarsh Valley to Valley Forge in 1777!

It was recommended by someone on our Master Plan Committee in the last few years that that old road be removed because it broke up the look of a beautiful hole but I said that road definitely had some very unique history and should perhaps stay for that very reason alone!

So far it seems to be safe. Do you think keeping the road because it's so historic is the right thing to do? There's probably no question the hole would be more beautiful without it, but in my opinion anyway, that old road certainly adds unique character not the least of which is due to its unique American history!

[TEPaul]

"If Fazio said take it out, then I would leave it for sure and add two or three more."

And that's precisely why I'm just so relieved you're (or "you are" if you prefer) not on our Green Committee or course Master Plan committee, redanman!  

[BCrosby]

I agree about roads. Old fences and walls also have their place. They give a course the feel of the local, very human setting in which golf is being played.

The 15th at The Country Club is a good example of a road hole in the US. Big hitters have to worry about finding the little ridge and swale that border both sides of the roadbed. Plus it looks cool.

Bob

[TEPaul]

But actually, redanman, the more I think about your suggestion of adding two or three more roads beside that old historic road Washington moved his army from Whitemarsh Valley to Valley Forge in 1777, the more I like the idea. I think I'll propose the idea to Gil Hanse and the committee. If they ask me what the purpose of that would be I'd tell them it's sort of a modern application that would prove if George Washington had only had a four-lane highway to move his army from Whitemarsh Valley to Valley Forge in 1777 the history of this country might be far different and perhaps far better! Perhaps it may have (or "may've" if you prefer) even meant we could've sent that French bumbler and baggard LaFayette packing back to France a whole lot sooner!

[NAF]

I think the oldest road crossing a golf course is the 11th and 12th at Royal Cinque Ports---it has the "Ancient Highway" crossing it which was used by Caesar's battalions in the conquest of Britain.--It is a pretty cool rutty hazard.

Here is a little history:

It was about 9am on 26th August 55 BC when Julius Caesar arrived off Dover where the cliffs were lined with a vast number of fully armed natives. He decided to find a more suitable landing place and at about 3.30pm with a favourable tide and wind, proceeded along the coast for 7 miles and came to a stop off an open and level shore.

From the set of the tides, the direction of the prevailing wind and other factors, historians, archaeologists and astronomers have, after investigation and exhaustive research, fixed upon Deal as the likely landing place described by Caesar in his Commentaries.

The steeply shelving beach made landing impossible and forced the heavily armed Romans to jump down into deep water and struggle ashore. Whilst a few lighter warships supported them the troops gathered on the beach, fighting their way in-land. Eventually the disciplined Romans wore down the Britons who asked for Peace terms.

[TEPaul]

redanman:

Do you think Lehigh would be a better golf course right now if they'd (or "they had" if you prefer) put you on the Green Committee or better yet made you the chairman of it? You don't really have to answer that question if you don't want to----the question is scary enough without an answer!  

[TEPaul]

Bob Crosby:

Did you know the 15th hole at The County Club is a William Flynn hole?

[TEPaul]

Noel:

Did Cornish and Whitten give Caesar any "design attribution" at Royal Cinque Ports for that military maneuver? If they didn't it was a massive oversight!

[TEPaul]

redanman:

I figured you guys must have (or "must've" if you prefer) had a lot of rain up there on Saturday because I was going over the Walt Whitman Bridge yesterday and I happened to notice your 11th green floating down the river!

[NAF]

Tom, I've never seen C&W give an assist to Caesar for Deal but it is one of the unique human landforms I've seen on a course.. Also, Deal was covered during WWII with protective  barbed wire and fortifications and the ancient highway still survived no problems.

I'm playing there with Ran in 3 weeks, I'm sure golf's most beloved figure will highlight the highway in his review if he does one.

[TEPaul]

Noel:

Don't forget to ask Ran if he thinks restoring some barbed wire on Deal might be a neat restoration! Pretty unique hazard, wouldn't you say? I'd recommend it be played as "through the green" but some of those sissy English might recommend it be something dumb like a "lateral hazard".

[Bob_Huntley]

Here is a little history:

It was about 9am on 26th August 55 BC when Julius Caesar arrived off Dover where the cliffs were lined with a vast number of fully armed natives. He decided to find a more suitable landing place and at about 3.30pm with a favourable tide and wind, proceeded along the coast for 7 miles and came to a stop off an open and level shore.

From the set of the tides, the direction of the prevailing wind and other factors, historians, archaeologists and astronomers have, after investigation and exhaustive research, fixed upon Deal as the likely landing place described by Caesar in his Commentaries.

The steeply shelving beach made landing impossible and forced the heavily armed Romans to jump down into deep water and struggle ashore. Whilst a few lighter warships supported them the troops gathered on the beach, fighting their way in-land. Eventually the disciplined Romans wore down the Britons who asked for Peace terms.

Noel,

Caesar's legions had an incentive to win the battle. He had ordered the boats burned upon landing.

Bob

[Steve_Lemmon]

Of course, the pro move would be to re route Washington and Caesar's roads to bring them into play for today's modern equipment.  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Seems to work for Cypress where the first tee shot goes over 17 mile drive.

[TEPaul]

"Of course, the pro move would be to re route Washington and Caesar's roads to bring them into play for today's modern equipment."

Steve:

The irony is that some of these young guns today hit the ball so far that Washington's 1777 road doesn't even need re-routing. Actually it's now in the landing zone for some of these guys who now may consider hitting their tee shots over that creek (something no one has ever previously considered)!  But it never was something like that that made people consider removing that road. Some, like Fazio, just think the look of it breaks up the hole visually and of course for years many of the lady golfers who are only capable of just getting the ball over the creek in two don't like that road just over the creek.

Bob Huntley:

That Caesar was a pretty "tough coach" to actually burn the boats to give his troops more incentive to win the battle. If I'd been Caesar, seeing as I'm a frugal Quaker (the local euphemism for being cheap), I would've just sold the boats to the Angles and Saxons for some serious whiskey money at least! Why not? If we lost the battle what difference would it have made (we'd all be dead anyway)? But if we won the battle I'd just have taken the boats back and still had all that serious whiskey money! Caesar may've been a great leader and a great general but he wasn't anywhere near as practical as I am!

[Bob_Huntley]

Mid-Ocean has a couple of tees where you can whiz one over the scooter riders, as they trundle along in the Bermudan roads.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

GCGC had many crossing roads, and continues to have at least one, with some easements across the land.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Pebble has 3 on consecutive holes, 15-17.  At least they used to on 17, when the back tee was across the road sharing with #4 tee (see Nicklaus' 1 iron hitting pin in '72 Open).


I've been told the back tee at #7 at GC at Red Rock in Rapid City, SD hits across the road.

[david h. carroll]

Elkridge #15 about 15 yards in front of the green makes for some interesting traffic management and the 8th at Beechtree at about 200 yds on the par 5 has entrance/staff road to the maintenance facility

[Robert Emmons]

Huntington CC has two, the road hole # 7 and the 4th...RHE

[Alex Chehansky]

first hole at Yeamans crosses the incoming road and it is still a solid par 4

[TEPaul]

I know there're a ton of roads that cross hole but the question is who thinks they should be removed? Speaking of things crossing, this isn't a road but the way the 16 fairway at Alwoodley crosses directly in front of the tees on #3 is one of the more interesting and cooler things I've seen recently architecturally!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Well, I did that and found that that road was actually the old road on which George Washington moved his army from Whitemarsh Valley to Valley Forge in 1777!

TP,

In reference to your original question, based on my limited knowledge of GMGC, but some knowledge of the area, yes it should stay for the above reason.

[T_MacWood]

The original Garden City GC was bisected by several roads and they were incorporated into the design. Over the years those road hazards were formalized into sand hazards--usually in the form of  a cross hazard.

[wsmorrison]

The Pocantico Hills course in Tarrytown, NY has a number of roads throughout the layout.  For the most part, they were constructed in depressions and are not readily visible, sort of like a HaHa on a dairy farm.  Is that the right spelling, Tom Paul?--I wasn't able to find the word in any dictionaries I have.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags: