How do architects get jobs?

[Joel_Stewart]

Simple question, different answers.  I have a freind who is in show-business, he tells me that its 90% business and 10% show.

The reason for this question is based upon a new muni golf course that is about to open in Northern California, had a budget of $40 million and is now $4 million over budget.  Because of this overrun, the course was seeded too late in the year and the course will need to open next spring instead of last month, depriving the city of revenue.

The bottom line is this city used a 2nd or 3rd tier architectural firm (local) and I'm expecting a very mediocre course on what could have been something special.

[TEPaul]

The way a 2nd or 3rd tier architect gets a job like that is called; "My wife's second cousin has a girlfriend whose father knows somebody very important in the city government's course selection process for a golf architect!"  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

I am assuming I am on that 2nd or 3rd tier higher particulalrly on this website so Joel I am not so quick to blame the architect as you are and can not pass that judgement on them without you naming them first so we can consider their merits.  Often times municipalities must award the bid to the low bidder, and it is usually a prevailing wage job.  The contractor likely underbid the job, and in today's golf depression it is likely they way under bid.  The contractors intent is then to find holes in the contract and specs by which they can issues multitudes of change orders.  Given the work is prevailing wage, the unit cost can be enormous therefore overruns can be oversized.  To better discuss this I you should name the project and architect.  Futhermore, their are plenty of first tier architects that go overbudget and miss planting dates so I would not be so quick to condemnthose that do not have a well recognized name, or are local to a project.  As is evidenced by TE Paul's comments it is a shame that if you do not measure up to the blessed and chosen few then your credentials and abilities are suspect, and people like TEPaul assume you  get your jobs through unseemly connections rather than merit.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Like Kelly, I suspect that I am one below the lowest possible rating tier of architects rated on this site......  And, like Kelly, I know there are more talented architects than ever out there, whether they grace the pages of golf digest or not.  You have to get your start somewhere!

I also get my share of municipal jobs, although in retrospect, I can't really describe why.  In my case, when I get them, it is usually hard work, plus my reputation for delivering solid popular courses.....I don't know about others, but TEPaul is right - the adage of "Its not what you know, but who you know" plays in the selection process both public and private.

As to the project in question, I think you are confusing architecture with contracting, though. Generally, the architect is not responsible for the contractors actions in meeting the schedule.  For that matter, you may be confusing change orders with schedule.  Adding 10% to the job could add work, and hence time, to the schedule, but it might also be be a change of materials or specifications that shouldn't actually require extra time.

You should also remember that things are expensive in California, and that the 40MIL probably includes millions in land cost, more millions in permitting, and other things beyond simple golf course construction costs.

Like Kelly, I, too would be interested in hearing the name of the project and architect......I'm sure I could find out on my own, but if you are going to back hand someone by association, you may as well backhand them out in the open!  We (he/she) can take it - it comes with the territory!

[TEPaul]

"As is evidenced by TE Paul's comments it is a shame that if you do not measure up to the blessed and chosen few then your credentials and abilities are suspect, and people like TEPaul assume you  get your jobs through unseemly connections rather than merit."  

Kelly:

Come on now, there's no evidence or implication of anything shameful or unseemly in my comments. For all I know that 2nd or 3rd tier architect who got that $40 million public course job Joel mentioned just may have huge untapped merit and just may be the next Alister Mackenzie in the making. And the chances are probably better than not that the girlfriend of the architect's wife's cousin is one helluva great girl!!

[A_Clay_Man]

$44 Million? They should get a minimum of 5 courses for that. Even in NORCAL.

Accountability in Municipal Gov't is like the road at GMGC, A thing of the past. Also, outdated, limited in function and a blemish on the collective.

[TEPaul]

"I also get my share of municipal jobs, although in retrospect, I can't really describe why.  In my case, when I get them, it is usually hard work, plus my reputation for delivering solid popular courses.....I don't know about others, but TEPaul is right - the adage of "Its not what you know, but who you know" plays in the selection process both public and private."

JeffB;

I love it! Remember that time you were the second choice in that project in Bucks Co? (The only time I met you). Well, I did my very best to intervene on your behalf with that township through my connections with GAP. I let out all the stops and called in all my markers and connections on your behalf but you lost out to some 10th tier architect anyway! That only goes to prove you banked on the wrong horse to get things done for you around here. Whenever I intervene in anything anymore it seems the thinking on the township level is;

"Here comes that wacko Tom Paul again, so let's select the other candidate or any other candidate than the one he's pushing!"

Kelly:

Remember that time I tried to intervene on your behalf after I was told they were still considering a number of candidates? Well, minutes after I threw my recommendation into the ring (you) they selected someone else! Well, I heard later the selection committee said;

"Holy Artichoke, here comes that wacko Tom Paul again so let's select someone else in the next five minutes so we can cut that wacko off at the pass!"

In the future if either of you two are down to just you and another candidate just call me again and I'll throw my recommendation behind the other candidate and you guys will be virtually assured of getting the job!

[Jeff_Brauer]

TEPaul,

In truth, the deciding factor was probably the idea that you would help design the course, and insist on a "Turbo Boost" slot......

Actually, I do recall that they had the idea that they specifically did not want a talented local arhcitect, like Jim Blaukovitch or Kelly Moran to do the job, so they would have something different.  Thats a concept I love when working out of town, but hate in DFW, for obvious reasons.

They got my name after seeing a feature article in a 1994 Golf World on me as an "Up and coming" architect.  The project dragged on, although much of the committee remained intact.  Somwhere around 1996, they interviewed five or six of us.  My record and style in interviews must have impressed them somewhat, because that is a long way to go for a public course architect, but they narrowed it to two when the project was to be finalized.

There are usually a few key questions that determine which way it would go.  One was did they need extra land, which (on the advice of one of my supporters) I recommended fully.  As it turns out, they did not acquire the extra land, so I made the wrong call there!  I did have supporters even after the final interview, and it was a split vote.  It took a few weeks for them to argue it out.  (Often, we hear the next day or so)

In the end, the committee had played several Rick Jacobsen courses, and went to his annual golf tournaments, so they knew him and his courses better than me and mine.  Being from Texas, only a few went out of their way to see my courses, so they had a higher comfort level with him, and selected him for the right reasons.

So, in one real life case, that is how the architect is selected.  I can't complain about the process they used, even if I was dissapointed in the outcome.....

[Joel_Stewart]

To answer a few questions, the new golf course in question is City of Pleasanton, Callippe Preserve Golf Course.

The architect is JMP (J. Michael Poellot) Golf Design with the main architect being Brian Costello.  They are located in the SF bay area.  Although they have built a few dozen courses, they have no ranked courses.  Does this mean they are good or bad, no, but at some point an architects work has to be noted by someone!
 
I found something interesting on the internet which may or may not be relevant, but the construction company appears to be Ferma Corp from Mountain View which I am not sure has any experience in building golf courses?

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Although they have built a few dozen courses, they have no ranked courses.  Does this mean they are good or bad, no, but at some point an architects work has to be noted by someone!
 

Oh,no.  I think I better pass on this one.  Deep breaths, deep breaths, count to ten.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

$40 million!  

Requests for proposal and requests for qualications (RFP and RFQ) are often used for government projects.  I have often wondered if top tier architects with busy schedules are willing to take the time to complete time consuming proposals.  

A project in Tacoma Washington received 62 proposals.  Robert Trent Jones II was selected.  Of the ten arhitectsI would haveput on a short list, only one was included inthe fianlists, John Harbottle III, and he was not selected.  Harbottle is a hometown product who I am sure would have sweat blood to do his best possible work.  

The government process is flawed.  It seeks mediocrity.  Simply name the truly interesting metropolitan projects completed in this country!  Torrey Pines, Olympic at GoldMountain, and Bethpage.  Others?

[Mike Benham]

I found something interesting on the internet which may or may not be relevant, but the construction company appears to be Ferma Corp from Mountain View which I am not sure has any experience in building golf courses?

FERMA's is a full service engineering firm (I believe they were also involved in running the Mountain View disposal site near Shoreline Golf Course) and demolition, site grading, excavation.  From what I am told, they did all the site grading (2 years ago) and shaping but the hardscape, irrigation and drainage was done by someone else.

Mike

[Mike Nuzzo]

Ferma Corp from Mountain View which I am not sure has any experience in building golf courses?

You can get a good course from a contractor with no experience.  You just better have damn good plans.  

Baxter recently told me a story of a landscape builder who came with a reputation of not being capable of building a good golf course.  It wasn't his option, so he worked with them.  He gave them his highly detailed plans, and they proceeded to make the course and especially the greens exactly as he envisioned, still able to monitor and make minor adjustments.  The detailed staking they went through, was the most Baxter had ever seen.  Without plans, they wouldn't have had a clue.

Cheers

[Neal_Meagher]

Planning for the new Pleasanton municipal course began in earnest in 1997 when the City sent out RFP's to most all golf architecture firms in California.  A citizen's committee was formed for the purpose of eliminating some of the firms and then to interview the three or four finalist firms to design what is now a 38 million dollar course (!).

To give some guidance to the proceedings, the citizen's committee hired local golf guru Sandy Tatum to shepherd them through things.  They interviewed the firm I was previously with, JMP and the other one or two (can't remember who they were).  JMP was chosen, and they have proven themselves with notable courses, though most of them are in Asia.

As Jeff noted, the probable run-up in costs were indeed associated with land acquisition and permitting which was complicated by my fair town's insistence on being somewhat "special" thus requiring a true country club for a day ambiance with all that it entails.  But, there were other factors at play here that have combined to create a real embarassment for the City Council (who just approved a further 4 million for change orders).

One of the factors was a promised dedicated access road that would bypass an existing semi-rural neighborhood.  This was promised to the existing land owners but as of now, the course will open without it.  Which leads to big factor number two, real estate.

A local development company was involved in a complicated land swap for an adjoining parcel that would include the promised access road.  After multiple machinations, this transaction did not go through as it was supposed to, although there will be several homesites alongside and within the golf course itself.

But all of this was dwarfed by unforseen issues relating to butterflies, red-legged frogs and wetlands that were not properly identified by the City beforehand.

Though this site is 2 miles from my house and I would, of course, have cherished the opportunity to work on it, the process in place did identify the other firm to do the work.  I can't fault the architecture selection process nor can I fault JMP for the enormous cost overruns.  Any design firm would likely have been caught in the middle of this morass.  They are a good firm and I'm sure the course will provide the City with what they wanted (eventually).  

The real lesson here is a cautionary tale to other municipalities who fancy themselves as more than they actually are.  Especially in an affluent area like this part of the Bay Area, politicoes who know nothing about golf simply want to keep up with or exceed in every way the other similar facilities around.  Perhaps this type of government largess can be identified in the future when another town decides that it too should have a gilded facility suitable for all outside functions and a course with all the expected CCFAD amenities.  

[Andy Hodson]

A municipality is going to spend $40M on a golf course??

Is that number right?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Pleasanton's problem it would seem to me is repeated often.  City governments' take on tasks with which they are not familar.  It is probably the City's first municipal golf course, or their first municipal course construction project in a long time.  Thus, they have learned a lot and could eliminate most costs the second time they do it.  Their education is paid by the taxpayers, so the the taxpayers are the losers here.  Others are making significant amounts at their expense.

[Tom_Doak]

I think it helps to be honestly enthusiastic about the site.  Maybe that's why I seem to get only outstanding sites these days ... I just can't fake my enthusiasm well enough to get any of the other jobs.

However, for most jobs, the three most important factors are name reputation, price, a history on previous similar jobs, and personal contacts.

The municipal bidding process is so strange to me that I avoid those kinds of projects.  A good golf course for a reasonable price just don't seem to be the most important criteria in their process.

[Lou_Duran]

All of the factors noted by Mr. Doak and others come into play.  However, the personality characteristics of the architect should not be underestimated.  Salesmanship, tact, and a good bedside manner go a long ways.   I know an architect who lost a very important municipal job on a fantastic site at least in part because he joked about the sexuality of one of the key "advisors" to the decision makers, and his comments were passed on to this individual.   I am also acquainted with a couple of architects who go way out of their way to be friendly and helpful to course superintendents and club staff, and they get numerous leads and job recommendations as a result.  Of course, as Tom Weiskopf so often demonstrates, a pleasant, positive personality may not be a requirement at the highest level of the industry.    

[Rick Baril]

Tom,  
I was surprised to see your insightful comment about being "honestly enthusiastic about the site", which is a pearl that I believe may be overlooked by many.  However, it is a uniquely important point.  

Each client believes their property possesses exceptional attributes, whether this is in fact true or not.  They want to feel the architect's enthusiasm for the site and the project.

IMO, once an architect has been invited (according to whatever criteria) to compete for a commission, an honest and conspicuous show of passion, is an important factor in the selection process.  

[Dan Kelly]

How often does an architect get a job by overpromising what he (or, of course, she) can deliver?

One of the architects here has told me of a job he lost when he told the developers it couldn't be ready this spring (I believe it was).

The guy who got the job promised it would be ready this spring.

It wasn't ready this spring. It's not ready this fall.

Will this "winning" architect pay any price for this?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

Hard to say.  It seems some negatives don't stick to some architects.  OF course, it may just seem that way.

You would think a developer ready to invest millions would check out the reputation of his architect. Of course, we all have a few enemies and/or bad projects, and hopefully, many more good ones.  

Maybe that is why the big wigs get so many jobs - its easier to just pony up a few millions more than to make the thirty or so phone calls it would take to really investigat some one out carefully.  If you hire a big wig,  even if you get their worst job ever, nobody would blame you.  Since you hired the best, you have a defensible position.....

[John Kirk]

Thanks for this discussion.  Very interesting.

I grew up in the SF Bay Area.  I know Pleasanton fairly well.  More a suburb of San Jose, it has been growing rapidly.  Naturally a very beautiful place.  Steep but rounded hills of golden grasses dotted with oaks, with shady oak valleys inbetween.  There are some places you could have built a really nice valley course.

Just curious where it was, and whether steep terrain may have contributed to the high price.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

What's the quality of the product ?

And, do you know for an absolute fact that the only reason the architect got that job was a performance date promise ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Doesn't a site that doesn't get you enthusiastic challenge your talents more ?

And, isn't there a delicate line to walk between candor and diplomacy.  Afterall, that client may come into a premier site at some point in the future, a site that stirs your enthusiasm.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan Kelly,

What's the quality of the product ?

And, do you know for an absolute fact that the only reason the architect got that job was a performance date promise ?

The product isn't finished yet, so I can't say. I can say that based on the product I've seen from the two architects in question (a limited but I think representative sample -- three courses, in each case), the architect who got the job is not in the same league as the one who didn't. Just my opinion, of course.

Do I know that for a fact? No, I don't. How could I? I wasn't on the committee that chose the architect. All I know for an absolute fact is what I reported in my first post -- namely, that the losing architect told me he'd informed the client that the course couldn't get finished on the timetable promised by the winning architect, and that the losing architect turned out to be right.