Fishers Island #4- "Alps & Punch Bowl"

[JSlonis]

This past weekend I had the distinct pleasure to play at the Fishers Island Club (NY) for the first time.  To say it was a fantastic treat would certainly be an understatement.

Fishers Island was designed by Seth Raynor in 1926, and has some of the most memorable views and golf holes on the East Coast.

The 4th hole, 397 yds, Par 4-"Punch Bowl", quickly became one of my favorite holes I have played in the U.S.  Here is an excerpt from the book- "The Fishers Island Club and its Golf Links."....

"Golfers rarely forget No. 4, the Punch Bowl Hole.  While one of the most memorable, it is known as much for its treachery as its beauty.
From the tee the golfer is faced with a drive that must carry approximately 175 yards over a wasteland of high grasses, up and over a 30 foot unkempt embankment before reaching the fairway.  A drive that fades at all to the right of the marker flag usually runs over the bank and is lost forever amongst the beach stones.  A perfect drive comes to rest along the right side of the wide fairway, a place from which it's possible to get a glimpse of the Punch Bowl green, perhaps 150 yards away.  Unfortunately most drives are not perfect, and No. 4 has the only blind second shot to the green on the course.  The line of play is not easily discernable.  A tall marker behing the green indicates the approximate location of the center of the green.
Hiding the green is a mound or Alps, a characteristic feature of Raynor courses.  The green is nestled in an unexpected 30-foot hollow just beyond a rising fairway.  This combination of Alps and Punch Bowl on one golf hole is quite unusual.  An errant second shot brings real trouble.  The green, as previously noted, is blind from the fairway, except along the extreme right edge, and seems a hopelessly abstract target to all but the most confident.  To the right of the Punch Bowl is "Death Valley" with its severe drop-off through tall grass that runs mercilessly down to the beach.  To the left is more tall grass, bayberry, and blackberry thickets. "It is best in the middle!"
The fourth green is a marvel: a huge bowl surrounded by two cuts of heavy and light fringe.  A ridge runs up and down the left portion of the putting surface.  Any golfer is pesed to escape this tough Handicap 1 with a par.  It's worth noting that No. 4 is one of only two holes at Fishers which has no bunkers.  In the words of George Bahto: "raynor's use of the existing topography here was nothing short of genius.""


One of the highlights of each round was to get to the top of the fairway to see exactly where your approach came to rest.  The Punch Bowl green is quite large.  It is approximately 40 paces deep by 35 paces wide and has another 12-15 feet of rising slope to the top of the Punch Bowl.  Over the Alps is about a 30-40 foot falloff down a steep slope that is covered in rough for about the first 1/3 and then fairway to the green for the remaining 2/3.

I forgot to mention that along the entire right side of the hole is a sharp dropoff to the rocky beach of the Long Island Sound.  As you can probably tell from my rather lengthy post, I found #4 at Fishers Island to be one of the most beautiful and architecturally unique holes I have ever played.

Unfortunately, I have no pictures that do it justice.

The pictures below are of #5-Biarritz, 227 yds, Par 3





#11-Eden, 164 yards, Par 3

[Jim Sweeney]

JSlonis, you've ruined a perfectly good evening for me, as now I will be at home tonight contemplating my aerial photo of the Fisher's Island Club, replaying every hole, imagining the shots, the scenery, the atmosphere.

The combined Alps/Punchbowl design is unusual in golf but not uncommon in Raynor's efforts. Camargo has the same, although modified with hidden bunkers just behind the rise in the fairway before the green. Also, the Alps feature is not as dramatic as at Fisher's. and one can see the top of the flagstick from the tee shot landing area (although I doubt that was usual in the days of persimmon and balata).

You are a very lucky man, Mr. Slonis, to have played Fisher's. Good for you.

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

The 4th at Fishers is a cool hole---the true all sides punchbowl green with the approach shot coming in blind but to a huge and accomodating green. The green is in a great setting too. But all in all I'll take the punchbowl hole at NGLA, although the green or certainly the green setting may not be as dramatic at Fisher's 4th, the fairway on NGLA's punchbowl hole is absolutely amazing, much more so than Fisher's #4.

[Wayne Freeman]

 I too was fortunate to be able to play Fishers and loved the whole experience-  just getting there is half the fun.  Isn't there a hole at Prestwick along the same lines as the 4th-  maybe not the same punchbowl green though.  And are there other holes near Fishers on either side of the sound  that are similar?-  does the 3rd at Yale qualify and is there one at Piping Rock?

[TEPaul]

redanman:

There was. There's a wonderful guy who puts it on every so often. He's a good dedicted senior player, perhaps as passionate an amateur golfer throughout his life as I've ever known. If ANGC would do what they should and just give him an honary membership tomorrow he'd be perhaps the only person to actually belong to the miraculous four. He grew up playing Fishers and wants it to be seen and played and appreciated by a good mid-am field. Organizing and getting a field to Fishers Island isn't easy as he has to figure out how to farm them all out to families as there's not really anywhere else to stay on the island.

If you mean that the alps and punchbowl go together as a natural combination, I agree, but as far as actually being a natural landform, that's another matter that's interesting to consider. It seems like all the alps effects on all three holes are natural landforms but the punchbowl greens are another matter.

I believe NGLA's #16 may be be largely natural, but Piping's punchbowl green is wholly built up on all sides as one can see Fisher's green is too. One can see that Fisher's punchbowl green was basically formed by creating "saucer ring" effect around the green site that sits in one helluva dramatic position on the coast-line.

It's possible to see some of the surrounding water on almost every hole of that course as it goes out to the point and back. I'd like to hear from Jamie on how the golf course played, as Fishers is one of those few that apparently still doesn't really have a comprehensive irrigation system on the fairways of the course. Like Maidstone and Newport it can get hard and fast and pretty burned out and that's a great look and condition few see anymore today. Donnie Beck who contributes here is Fisher's super.

Do most on here know that Fishers Island is basically a northern repeat of the southern golf and residential community of Mountain Lake Florida that preceded it? The very same combination of developer (Baltimore's Frederick Ruth), famous land planner (Boston's Frederick Law Olmstead) and golf architect (New York's Seth Raynor). In the old days even the staffs would commute from one to the other seasonally.

Jamie Slonis appears to be most enamored by #4. The next hole, the Biarritz, to me is one of the world's truly interesting ones simply because its setting is so dramatic, and it is demanding, particularly in wind. My favortie hole there although it may not be in the top end on the course for demand is #9. I love the way you play over the hill and then down to the green that sits right on the edge of the sound. I can't imagine how any architect would not have put a green there. The green chairman of Fishers seems to feel that #8 is one of his favorite holes anywhere.

That's probably one of the things that's so interesting about Fishers Island golf course, there seems to be about 6-7 holes that a variety of people think is one of their favorites anywhere. What course can claim a variety of favorites that expansive and varied?

[Donnie Beck]

I am very curious to know how the players felt about the course. We had an 1 1/2 of rain Wednesday night into Thursday morning so the greens were a little softer than I would have liked. Fortunately the winds blew Friday and firmed things up a bit. The course was played as par 70 as it was originally designed with 8 and 18 as par fours. (Now if they would only reprint the score cards, but that is another story) The course held it's own with a winning score of 214 and low round of 68.

[JSlonis]

Donnie,

All though you weren't there to hear it(too busy still working), everyone playing in the event was singing the praises of you and your staff for the wonderful condition of the course.

The greens were fantastic, and I thought the course really started to show its character over the weekend as it firmed up and played faster.

TEPaul,

Unfortunately, I've never played NGLA, so I can't compare #4 at Fishers.

I really liked #5 as well.  It is a fantastic hole, made all that much better by the incredible setting and view.  The difficult part about Fishers Island is singling out what you enjoy the most, because there are so many great holes and views that it is hard to decide what's the best.

For the record, I shot:

1st Rd- 36-42=78, Awful back nine made worse by the stiff breeze and three 3 putts.

2nd Rd- 36-32=68, Much more fun on the back nine, wind was calmer and in a different direction.

3rd Rd- 38-37=75, Calm wind, more difficult hole locations, and another lousy putting effort.

Many thanks do go to our host for the tournament.  He is a gentleman in every respect, and his love for Fishers Island and the game of golf really show through.  I felt very lucky to be included.

[Donnie Beck]

Jamie,

I wanted to make it to the awards ceremony, but we started aerifing the course as soon as you finished sunday's round. I am glad you had a nice time. If you are in the area again be sure to give me a call.

[James Edwards]

Out of interest, how long is the green at the 5th?  and is it all maintained as a green the whole way through or was it ever 2 parts?

[JSlonis]

James,

The green at the 5th hole is quite large.  I would say it would have to be about 30-35 yds deep and just as wide.  The middle of the green is bisected by a spine that runs down from the back edge through to the front 1/4 of the green.

The only portion that is maintained as green is the back part of the Biarritz feature.  The rest is maintained at a low fairway height.  There is a very deep bunker to the left of the green and another deep bunker to the right.

[GeoffreyC]

Fishers Island looks to be absolutely ideal for golf. A thrilling golf course in a setting that is all world. I can see where it is considered Raynor's prize gem of a design.  The incredibly natural look of the holes even with the clearly man made greensites is a testament to Raynor's genius.  I sure wish that the folks at Yale would have seen the difference between Donny's great work in making Fishers Island an authentic Raynor course and their so called "restoration" of his work.

By the way Jamie- you are still invited to come up and play Yale (I'm sure Mike Sweeney would join us). Its been a long time since Inniscrone.  You will enjoy it.

[JSlonis]

Geoffrey,

Thank you.  It has been a while, and I'd love to see Yale.  Hopefully, sometime this fall I could get up there.

[Donnie Beck]

Out of interest, how long is the green at the 5th?  and is it all maintained as a green the whole way through or was it ever 2 parts?

James,

If you include the front section, the 5th the green is 210' long X 106'  wide.  There is no record at the club of it ever being all green.

[JDoyle]

Here is a view of the awesome 4th at Fishers Island from the tee box.  If the player goes to the right side of the fairway he has a clear view of the green for his second, but he has to contend with hitting off the fairway and down into the Atlantic.  Anything in the center and left and the player will face a difficult blind second shot approach.

[JDoyle]

One of my favorite second shots on the planet.

[JDoyle]

Here is the dramatic punchbowl 4th green.  From above the green you can hear the sounds of the ocean, however, once you are are in the punch bowl all noise seems to disappear.




Here is a great angle of the 4th hole looking back towards the tee box.

[GeoffreyC]

I assume the 5th is Fishers version of the Leven hole with a mirror image strategy as the 17th at NGLA or #6 at Yale? Pretty cool having the LI Sound as the hazard to challenge to get a clear view of the green. At Yale its the stream on the left and at NGLA its a longer carry over the waste on the left as well as the tall fescues.

Raynor was pretty good at adapting the natural features of a property into the basic strategies of the "template holes".

[TEPaul]

Geoffrey:

The 5th at Fishers Island is Fishers version of the Biarritz hole not the Leven hole. All the holes at Fishers have names and #5 has always been the biarritz.

[George Pazin]

I think Jonathan Doyle's photos might be misnumbered, then. Are his photos actually of #4, which Jamie mentions in his initial post?

Regardless, some great photos. Scott's aerial is pretty cool, too, if I remember correctly.

[GeoffreyC]

Tom

I'm confused but that's nothing new  

From the picture in Jonathan Doyle's post, the player is lined up for what is said to be a second shot into the green after a drive to the right that challenges the LI Sound (3rd photo down). I refer to his statement below in the next post "Here is a view of the awesome 5th at Fishers Island from the tee box.  If the player goes to the right side of the fairway he has a clear view of the green for his second, but he has to contend with hitting off the fairway and down into the Atlantic.  Anything in the center and left and the player will face a difficult blind second shot approach."

Is that a different hole and if so that one is a Leven hole?

[James Edwards]

Donnie, Jamie, cheers.

Donnie, Yes, thats what I was aiming at....

From the aerials I have seen and my limited knowledge of scaling flags with the surrounds, I had it around 200 feet.

Is it fair to say that most holes nowadays that are so called 'copies' of the biaritz hole are in fact using both sides of the middle hollow?  All of the examples I know of are, but a great deal smaller..  

James

[JSlonis]

George,

You are correct.  The pictures are mismarked. Johnathan's photos are of the 4th hole-Punch Bowl, not the 5th hole.

Johnathan,

Thanks for posting the pictures of #4, they give a good perspective of the hole.

[JDoyle]

Geoffrey / Tom,

Sorry for the confusion caused by my sloppy labeling.  My photos are of the 4th hole.  The 5th hole is the Biarritz.  I have corrected the mistake.

Jason,

Thanks for bringing up this wonderful hole as a thread topic.  I have been meaning to start a topic on this hole for at least six months.  I think it brings strategy and beauty to a very high level.  This is what all working architects should be trying to create - even if they do not have all that ocean front property to work with.  Mike Strantz created a similar hole at Tobacco Road with no water - I believe it is #4.

[George Pazin]

I forgot to mention - nice setup, Jonathan.

Jamie -

The day I refer to a 42 as an awful back nine is the day I will have really reached my golfing nirvana.

[GeoffreyC]

OK guys - thanks for the correction.

However, this great hole still reminds me more of a Leven strategy then an Alps.  As I understand it the Leven hole requires challenging a hazard to get a clear view of the green while a drive to a safer side of the fairway leaves a blind approach (usually over a hazard).  #6 at Yale and #17 at NGLA fit that bill as this hole appears to do as well.  Alps holes I know of are basically blind approaches. I know a long drive up the extreme right of #3 at NGLA can leave a view of the flagstick or at least the bell tower.