[Mark_Rowlinson]

Walls were quite a popular feature of early golf courses and still exist at North Berwick, TOC and one or two others.  There's one just through the back of the 2nd green at Cavendish (Mackenzie) which frequently induces me to pitch short for fear of either bouncing over it OOB or hitting it on the full and rebounding back down the fairway.  Is there a place for an occasional wall in today's courses?

[Tom_Doak]

I hope so, since the second course at Stonewall has a bunch of them ... in play on the par-3 second and the par-5 eighth.

I think some people view them as a fetish.  Personally, the 13th at North Berwick is one of my favorite holes in the world ... I was going to choose it for Paul Daley's book, but I left it for someone else, and no one did it!  But, honestly, that hole uses the wall so perfectly that no one is ever going to build another one as good.

[Bill_McBride]

Gil Hanse's Craighead course at Crail has two walls in play, both forced carries 90* to the line of play and each about five feet high.  These are old walls on a new course, so it just works very well.  One is the second shot on an uphill par 5, if you can't carry it you have to lay up and the 3rd is semi-blind.  The other is on a shortish par 4, if you don't carry it you stand a good chance of being dead right in front of it!

[Paul_Turner]

The 3rd at St Enodoc has a fine wall too.  All mossy and overgrown with turf in places, it looks just right.  

[Robert Thompson]

I actually found the walls at Berwick very charming. While Mr. Doak likes the 13th, I particularly like the wall on the "Trap," the 464-yard third hole at Berwick, where the wall crosses about 100 yards from the green. After hitting it into the rough, I swung hard and had my ball just carry the wall and roll almost to the front of the green. Very cool -- and a great indicator of the fun to come.

Isn't there also the remains of a wall in front of the opener at Crail?

Robert

[Mike_Cirba]

Gil Hanse left/fortified an existing stone wall in place on the 11th at French Creek, bisecting the approach about 10 paces short of the par five green.  

Definitely a conversation piece.

[Dan Herrmann]

Gil Hanse left/fortified an existing stone wall in place on the 11th at French Creek, bisecting the approach about 10 paces short of the par five green.  

Definitely a conversation piece.

Mike,
The beauty of the 11th hole wall is that it makes a relatively straightforward par 5 into a really strategic hole.  Few golfers go for the green for fear of the ball hitting the wall and bounding away to parts unknown.

Lots of stonewalls in Elverson

[Tyler Kearns]

If old stone walls and such exist on a site, I see no problem incorporating them into the design of a golf course, especially given their history in the game, as noted in the previous replies. However, if walls are built in conjunction with the golf course in an effort to conjure up a sense of history to a site which previously had none, then this falls in to the realm of fetish. The final result will tend to look "designed" rather than natural, and this will eliminate any sense of history and uniqueness that was trying to be created. Certainly time would help heal those wounds, but knowing the wall wasn't found on site will always depreciate it's desired effect.

Tyler Kearns

[Andy Hughes]

Whiskey Creek in Maryland has walls on 18 smack in the middle of the landing area.


I think it's cool, though I agree with Tyler that it would not feel cool if it was contrived.

[Mike_Cirba]

Andy;

As someone whose drive was straight down the middle at Whiskey Creek on 18, I can tell you that the second shot from about 15 yards short of those ruins (trying to lay up with a 9-iron) was one of the scariest shots of my life.  

Give me the little, 2.5 feet farmland stone walls anyday over the ones at Whiskey Creek, or worse yet, the faux ruins at Barefoot Resort created by Davis Love's group.  I'm not sure the distinction I'm trying to draw, but that one at Whiskey Creek is about 15 feet high.    

[Andy Hughes]

As someone whose drive was straight down the middle at Whiskey Creek on 18, I can tell you that the second shot from about 15 yards short of those ruins (trying to lay up with a 9-iron) was one of the scariest shots of my life.  

Mike, so how was it hitting out of my divot then?

I understand exactly the distinction you are making. Granted, the old house became a big issue on my second shot, but to me it is just a glorified central hazard with more interest than a bunker (and more ability to inflict bodily harm )

[Brian_Ewen]

For those that have never seen it , this is the finishing hole at my home club , Stonehaven .

The tee is 211 yards away left . The photo is taken from the clubhouse , and its really fun sitting here on a Saturday afternoon with a beer , watching medal hopes disappear in the 14th century Kirk or up against the wall .

I managed to find some old aerials of the course and I now realise that the hole was played a long time with only the one bunker on the right of the green , probably designed by James Braid . Since then other bunkers have been added at the wall side , which is a shame in my view .

[Brian_Ewen]

A couple of pics of Barefoot :

[Dan Herrmann]

Brian,
What awesome pictures.  Thanks for sharing!

[paul cowley]

....tyler k...i'm confused and a little concerned regarding your previous post and your explanation of how new walls relate to fetish.

  according to webster these new walls are either ;

   a charm [as in sorcery ].
   
   anything to which one is irrationally devoted.

   or any non-sexual object that abnormally excites erotic
   feelings [if this was your inference , i can assure the walls
   were not designed with any sexual connotation in mind ]  

....for clarity , which definition were you refering to ?

   personally ,i fail to see how a new wall is any different from an old wall if it relates to and is integral to the holes strategy.
....that is the key...if it doesn't , it might as well be a windmill [re :the national ].

  BTW , both pictures posted were not taken from the intended primary line of play.....
   

[Mike Benham]

I actually found the walls at Berwick very charming. While Mr. Doak likes the 13th, I particularly like the wall on the "Trap," the 464-yard third hole at Berwick, where the wall crosses about 100 yards from the green. After hitting it into the rough, I swung hard and had my ball just carry the wall and roll almost to the front of the green. Very cool -- and a great indicator of the fun to come.

Isn't there also the remains of a wall in front of the opener at Crail?

Robert

This photo captures Roberts prose quite nicely although I don't know about the wall crossing 100 yardds short of the green ...

"It was a dark and stormy night ..."[/i]




And a photo of John K's crisply hit shot on 13 ...

[astavrides]

Bill McB.,

I remeber well the one stone wall at Crail Craighead--the one that bisected the par 4 leaving a blind second shot.  I found it quite annoying.  If Gil Hanse was forced to leave it there for historical reasons or something, ok. But just because they used to have them in older courses is not a good reason.  Why have a blind shot there?   Whether my shot is good or bad, it doesnt add any enjoyment to me (only stress) to not see where my ball is going.  If it is a dune or something that blocks one side of a fairway view, that is ok because it is natural and adds strategy, but a wall going all the way across in this case was an eyesore and a pain in the ass.

[Bill_McBride]

Alex, I thought it was okay because the wall was obviously there before the course!  What did you think of the wall on the par 5?  What was your overall impression of the Craighead.  How did it compare to the Balcomie if you played them both?  Look forward to your thoughts.

[Casey Wade]

Richland Country Club just south of Nashville, Tennessee uses old Civil War walls that meander through the property.  It's a Jack Nicklaus signature course and one of my favorites even though I only played it once!

[RJ_Daley]

When walls of historical importance pre date the golf course and holes need to be routed with them somehow in proximity, I admit there is a certain old world charm.

When walls are placed on new courses to evoke a certain old world charm, they are more useless than ninnies on a fish.  I hate them in that case.  Bricks, rocks, rr ties (unless truly needed to shore up a problem slope), and anything but sod walls are a contrived abomination.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

One example close to home for a lot of us is at Architects--the first hole, meant to approximate Old Tom Morris.  
The wall is fully contrived, but it serves as a boundary for the left side of the hole, and really isn't in play, for all levels of player.  

In this case, I understand what Kay and Whitten were doing here, which was giving the look of British courses that featured real walls.  The were wise enough, however, to move it well off the lines of play, so it's simply a visual and not part of the strategy of the hole.  

I don't dislike it, but it's not something that makes me itch to play the course either--it's just there.  The whole course is contrived anyway, so it's not that big of a deal, in my mind.  

In the case of Whiskey Creek, I simply play around it, and look at it from a distance.  This is very much in play for all levels of player, but I like it, simply because I think it adds something to the property, a little bit of strategy (can I hit driver past it down the right, or take fairway metal and be short of it...?).  The nice thing is, the golfer isn't penalized for being left of it either, as there is still plenty of room on the left to hit either a layup or an approach.  The trees I'm not so sure about, I suppose the architects felt the immediate area just needed a little extra something to fill the space.  I don't feel they affect the shot that much, it seems possible to hit a low layup under or a high shot around/through.  

[astavrides]

hi bill,

to be honest i dont remember the wall on the par 5 that well, and im too lazy to look it up in my yardage guide and try to picture it.  i liked balcomie more although i only played the first 12 or 13 holes there because of time limitations.  it was a truer links course, quirkier and funner, and closer to the water.  craighead, to me, looked and felt like a modern course restricted by environmentally sensitive laws (although i dont know if that was actually the case there.)  true, it is a different piece of land than balcomie, but it didnt have the feel of an older course like some recently built links courses in GB&I have.  i will say that Craighead is longer and more challenging to modern equipment and the standard of par.   it is by no means a bad course, but i much preferred Hanse's rustic canyon and inniscrone.  

by the way i did like the wall at 18 on whiskey creek.
-alex

[Doug Siebert]

Bill,

I'm with you on the walls at Craigshead -- I loved them!  Didn't get to play Balcomie, maybe next time.

Funny thing was that the wall on the shortish par 4 didn't really affect me much, since I didn't see any particular reward for challenging that wall other than a shorter shot.  Even without that wall I wouldn't have hit a driver there, though I might have hit a bit more than a 4i if I didn't have to worry about getting too close to it.  At least I seem to recall feeling things were a bit too narrow to play over the wall, which is understandable given that I'd pushed my driver off the tee about 50 yards right when going for the green on the previous hole.

[Mark_F]

Mark Rowlinson:

Peter Thomson has designed a green, a par 3, I believe, at his new Sandhurst club in Melbourne.  It follows around on two sides.

Only seen pictures of it, but despite the use of some nice stone, it kind of looks out of place with the cart paths.  And the clear blue skies...

There is also, of course, a faux burn meandering across at least one hole 'a'la St Andrews'.

Along with, one would presume, tartan plus fours and flat caps available in the Pro shop.

No word yet, though, on a directional sign by the green pointing out how far Dornoch, Troon, Carnoustie and Muirfield are...

[ForkaB]

I played a Pete Dye course (Franciacorta) in Italy this May.  The 6th(?) was a reachable "par" 5 (500 or so uphill) which had a 10-12 foot high stone retaining wall running across the fairway at 350 or so.  The wall surely made you keep you head down on your second shot, but played havoc with the high-handciap woman I was playing with.  I think she eventually threw her ball over.

I would not recommned this sort of a wall feature, but if the land dictates it, who am I to argue?

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