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Jason Blasberg

Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« on: January 24, 2007, 11:35:49 AM »
Silly question but I'm getting conflicting info.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:36:01 AM by Jason Blasberg »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 11:43:57 AM »
Jason,

It's Green. Like Keeper of the Green.

The Green is a reference to the entire course, not just the Greens.
jeffmingay.com

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2007, 11:47:52 AM »
I too have heard, from this site, that it's "Green".  

But try telling that to anyone in the "real" world, and they'll think your nuts, either about architecture or just in general.  

"Greens" is now in the venacular and I don't think it's going to change.  But good luck!

Jason Blasberg

Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2007, 11:48:59 AM »
Jason,

It's Green. Like Keeper of the Green.


Thanks.  Makes sense.  Do I have to wear green to our meetings?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2007, 12:22:12 PM »
I have always thought that green or greens are a misnomer.  Most bunkers and not green and lakes and streams generally are some variation of blue/green.  
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Phil_the_Author

Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 01:15:54 PM »
Golf courses were always constructed out on the "Green." This included streams, trees, valleys, gullys, lakes and anything else that were incorporated into the course.

That is why they were always called "Green Keepers" and "Green Committes."

For example, in August 1910 Tilly wrote that "The Green Committee of the Shawnee Country Club..."

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 01:33:23 PM »
I think this question is far from silly.
I think it should be at the top of every meeting minutes of every green committee in america.
This way they will stop messing with their courses.

I read a members letter from a club in the North East recently, they clearly weren't informed.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 01:34:26 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mark Studer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 03:01:47 PM »
Jason- As a new member of the committee of the green, by far the best thing you can do this first year, is to support your superintendent and remind other committee members that your club hired him(or her) to manage  the green.  I served on our committee for 13 years and found it educational and fun.  With an interest in architecture, help with establishing your club's long range plan, IN WRITING, with the committee and sup't. My experience showed me that far too much time was spent on current conditioning.  Suggest that some of your committee time be spent out on the course...great fun. Your staff will know "what to do today".  Help by supporting the long range view. Good Luck , support your paid expert, and have fun. The USGA.org  website has an area  concerned with turfgrass...a good reference...current articles and archived material.
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 04:04:05 PM »
I agree with all the above...but don't be afraid to challange "conventional" wisdom.  Just because your sup't does "it" a certain way doesn't necessarily mean he's right.  He might have his own agenda, proper or misguided.  Ask and ask, go see, test, then ask again.  

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 04:48:02 PM »
I agree with all the above...but don't be afraid to challange "conventional" wisdom.  Just because your sup't does "it" a certain way doesn't necessarily mean he's right.  He might have his own agenda, proper or misguided.  Ask and ask, go see, test, then ask again.  

And, at the same time, don't assume because your super does things different than the club down the street or not according to the USGA, that he or she doesn't know what they're doing. After all, I have yet to hear anything from any organization that promotes less water, fertilizer and pesticides. They all promote the use of "product".

Joe
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 04:53:16 PM by Joe Hancock »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2007, 04:52:59 PM »
I think this question is far from silly.
I think it should be at the top of every meeting minutes of every green committee in america.
This way they will stop messing with their courses.

I read a members letter from a club in the North East recently, they clearly weren't informed.

Mike,

Maybe I'm daft, but where am I missing the correlation between "Green or Greens Committee" and how either spelling could effect the function of said committee?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil_the_Author

Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2007, 05:12:00 PM »
Joe,

The difference is in the meaning of teh two words. As "Green" refers to the ENTIRE golf course and "Greens" to the putting surfaces.

Your clubs greenkeeper takes care of everything and not just the putting surfaces likewise the Green committee deals with issues involving the entire course and not just the putting surfaces.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2007, 05:17:46 PM »
Philip,

Thanks, but has there ever been, in the history of golf, a committee that focused solely on the putting surfaces?

Somehow, I have the feeling the answer is "yes", but I've never heard of any.

Thanks again,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil_the_Author

Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2007, 06:15:59 PM »
Evidently there has been a recent one hard at work at Winged Foot.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2007, 06:22:10 PM »
Evidently there has been a recent one hard at work at Winged Foot.

So, if I have this all correct, the folks at Winged Foot must be a "Green's Committee", not a "Green Committee". If they were a Green Committee, they would have done things properly.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Guy Phelan

Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2007, 07:26:45 PM »
It is neither "greens" or "green" committee it is "Agronomy"

 ;D

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2007, 07:27:39 PM »
It is neither "greens" or "green" committee it is "Agronomy"

 ;D

Adding mounds behinds greens isn't agronomy....lol.... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Guy Phelan

Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2007, 07:33:16 PM »
It is neither "greens" or "green" committee it is "Agronomy"

 ;D

Adding mounds behinds greens isn't agronomy....lol.... ;D

Joe


Joe - it is an extremely British term. Guy

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2007, 08:05:19 PM »
It is neither "greens" or "green" committee it is "Agronomy"

 ;D







Adding mounds behinds greens isn't agronomy....lol.... ;D

Joe


Joe - it is an extremely British term. Guy


Would I find it in the Python version of the Hungarian-English Translation dictionary?

"I wish to see your agronomies...."

 ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark Studer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2007, 09:02:05 PM »
Joe and Matt- I agree that there are many ways to get the results you want .  My point is that you need to be results driven and let your super decide how to do it and work together to see how much you can afford per season(budgets are all ~ 60%-70% labor).  Once the committee starts micro-managing HOW it should be done , it is unfair to the super and if the results are unacceptable, he can(and should) blame the committee for meddling in his job.  Wouldn't it be more fair for all to have an upfront WRITTEN expectation of the budget and conditioning of all playing areas...tees, fairways, roughs, bunkers , and putting greens and then to evaluate your professional's results against the WRITTEN plan. The committee can evaluate capital budgets(five year revolving), projects and operating budgets, but if you have to "help" your super decide when to do the next  topdressing, aerifying,rolling greens, or bunker work,etc.  you have hired the wrong person........OR HAVE THE WRONG COMMITTEE !!  The super should be coming to the committee chair and members with HIS plan.  That's when the committee needs to be on board and support the super and educate the members that the playing fields are going to be cultivated!!  I have played and officiated at Huntingdon Valley(outside Philadelphia) and they do it differently than others....BUT....the committee is allowing their super to decide. Just as it should  be.  Haven't we all heard,"I was playing xyz golf club just this week, and THEIR  greens are perfect"? Your answer is to have a long range view and support it.(refer to the upfront WRITTEN expectations)....If  the plan does not work out , the obvious next step is to find a new chief of staff or FIRE THE COMMITTEE that interferes.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 09:04:47 PM by Mark Studer »
The First Tee:Golf Lessons/Life Lessons

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2007, 11:40:31 PM »
Jason- As a new member of the committee of the green, by far the best thing you can do this first year, is to support your superintendent and remind other committee members that your club hired him(or her) to manage  the green.

This seems exactly right.  If you have confidence in the Director of Grounds, I have learned that the best thing a committee member can do is to run interference for the greenkeeper by understanding what he is doing and why, do the best you can to get him the things he needs to do his job, and explaining best you can to members who ask questions what is going on and why.  For example, if members complain that the course is soaked and it hasn't rained in a month, make sure you know if he dropped some fertilizer, which required a good soaking.  

Obviously, if there are questions about the super, then different issues arise.  We also went through that, but now that we have someone we regard as outstanding our job is support.  

As another example, we did some controversial tree work last year, and our Green Chairman made it quite clear to the membership that this was his and the committee's call (our DOG obviously told us what he thought was best for the club, and what the alternatives and results would likely be if we chose other options).   Really did an outstanding job.

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2007, 11:52:55 PM »
Green Committee

Sébastien Dhaussy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2007, 04:06:14 AM »
Found on this old GCA thread :
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20474

Brian Ewen – 11/11/2005

"Only this month, in a once respected British greenkeeping journal (and no slip of the pen either, since the error was repeated several times), reference was made to greens staff and greens committees. Of all people, it's hard to believe a professional organization would perpetuate such a gaff, but perhaps ignorance is bliss!

Golf course managers, committee members, club secretaries and, of course, all golfers should be aware of the meaning and origins of words exclusive to the game. Frequent misuse of golf terms is to be found in all manner of so-called official histories of the game and in various articles published by accepted experts, such misuse continuing in print and common language to the present day. The belief that such bastardization becomes acceptable through frequent use is one that finds no favor in these more enlightened times.

Let us start with the playing area—or as we commonly refer to it today, the course. In the earliest phase the game was played on seaside links; common wasteland twixt land and sea used also for archery practice, football, bleaching clothes, breeding rabbits etc. — to say nothing of courting couples and the like.

When the game spread inland the term 'links' was in many instances mistakenly used to describe the land on which the game was played.

Linksland, by proper definition, is "undulating sandy land close to the shoreline beside coastal towns and villages. Often close to the lowest point of rivers before they reach the sea, the glacial alluvium deposited by rivers joined the sand of the bay to form broad fertile deposits. The prevailing off-shore wind and storms constantly blew sand inland, creating the uneven grassy land immediately behind the beach, know as the links." *

More frequently, however, the word 'green' was favored over 'links'. After all, cricket—the national game of England with similar rustic origins—was played on the village green. So the golf 'green' was the accepted terminology for inland courses around the period 1880—1914 when the original golf boom was in full swing.

There are many terms derived from the word 'green'—some familiar to our ears—which have persisted to the present day in common usage

GREENKEEPER-— Self explanatory. NEVER greenskeeper!

GREEN STAFF — Always two words: staff who work on the green.

GREEN COMMITTEE — Never greens committee please. Course committee not an acceptable alternative.

GREEN CHAIRMAN — Boss of the green committee. A greens chairman, if such a person were to exist, might be ridiculed as overseeing the cabbages and sprouts!

RUB OF THE GREEN — Becomes intelligible when the meaning of green is understood.

GREEN FEE — Course fee is altogether too coarse !

THROUGH THE GREEN - Applies to the whole area (except tee and putting green , and all hazards ) of the course being played .

PUTTING GREEN - Where the 4.25' diameter hole is found.

PRACTICE GREEN - The practice area, NOT a putting green.

PRACTICE PUTTING GREEN - Yes, you've got it !"
"It's for everyone to choose his own path to glory - or perdition" Ben CRENSHAW

Adrian_Stiff

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Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2007, 04:18:22 AM »
In the UK the term is 'Greens Committee'.

Remember we drive on the other side of the road.

Green committee does make more sense, but a Greens committee at a normal British golf club is made up of a band of people very often with no skills in any agronomic sense other than perhaps an interest in gardening. These band of people instruct the qualyfied staff what to.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Question, is it Greens or Green Committee
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2007, 08:04:13 AM »
It is "Green" Committee.  But it is interesting that some clubs use the terms "Grounds" Committees and "Grounds" Chairman, Lehigh being one of many.  

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