[Jimmy Muratt]

Here are some really good aerial shots of Hidden Creek from their website.  These provide a unique look at some of it's strategic bunkering and mostly open greensites.  

Aerial of Front 9:


Aerial of Back 9:


#5, par 4, 395 yards


#8, par 4, 300 yards, Check out the undulations in this great bunkerless green:


#11, par 3, 117 yards, Terrific uphill short par 3:


#15, par 4, 411 yards:


#16, par 4, 470 yards:


#17, par 5, 495 yards:


#18, par 4, 408 yards:

[Mike_Cirba]

Jimmy;

I must admit that I'm perplexed when people mention "strategies" on certain holes at Hidden Creek.  While I love holes like 3, 5, 10, 11, 12, I find others there to be rather pedestrian and frankly without much in the way of meaningful options.  

For instance, could you explain to me what strategies are involved in holes 15, 16, & 18, for instance?  I'd probably ask the same about holes 1, 6, and 17, as well.

But, I guess the overwhelming question I have about Hidden Creek is this;  Is it possible for a course that doesn't have a single "white knuckle" approach shot (one that gets the palms sweating because you just know you're f'd if you mess up) to be considered "great"?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

To not see the options and strategy at # 3 immediately qualifies you as the President of the Ray Charles Architectural Society.

# 3 is a great hole, filled with options.
Off the tee, on the second shot, and yes, on the third shot.

With respect to # 11, a par 3 of 117 yards, uphill, with a narrow, small green, par 3's rarely have strategic options.

What are your options at # 3, # 10 and # 15 at Pine Valley ?

# 12 also abounds with options, do you lay back or attempt to go for the green.  Do you hit it up the right side off the tee giving you the ideal angle into the green, or do you "safe" it left, providing an awkward if not difficult shot forward ?

# 10 and # 16 are long tough golf holes, but certainly the approach to # 10 has several options.  Do you carry it to the green or run it in ?  The same could be said, to a lessor degree about # 16.

# 5's options are mostly on the approach, not at the tee.

If you don't see the strategies, the options on these holes, it's not the fault of the golf course.  The perception of options can be in the eye or lack of eye in the beholder.

I think the first few aerials, with the shadows, distort the width of the golf courese, it plays much wider then the aerials would indicate.

Mike, what tees did you play from ?

If # 4 with a back left pin doesn't cause white knuckles, I'd like to know what does.  The second shot on # 9 can do the same, as can the second on # 12 as a par 4, and # 18.

Mike, have you tried an oculist ?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, I would assume that much of the strategy for this course is in the greens also, thus creating interesting paths and routes and options, on where the opin is located that paticular day, correct?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

You're correct.

With large greens, with greens within green configurations, hole location often dictates strategy, but only to those that have the eye to see it  

At next springs GCA.com get together at Hidden Creek, we'll see if Mr Cirba has had enough time to have his vision corrected.

The 8th hole is brilliant in the relationship between the hole location and the strategies/options presented.

Other holes, such as # 2 have huge strategic swings, based on hole location.

Wide fairways tend to lull the unobserving to sleep  

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

You missed what I said, I believe.  I said while I love holes like 3, 5, 10, 11, 12, , I'm perplexed by the apparent lack of strategies at holes like 1, 6, 15, 16, 17, & 18.  

Your reference to white knuckle shots is interesting.  Let me ask it in a different way.  Is there anywhere you can miss a green at HC where the penalty is realistically more severe than getting up and down in 3 shots, with a good chance at 2?

I'll look forward to you showing me in person.    

[Scott_Burroughs]

Those pics are terrific!  Much better than the under-construction AOTD I did of HC:
(shrunken for easier viewing)

[Dale_McCallon]

Patrick

I have two questions:  The fairways did look fairly generous on the hole by hole photos, but from the aerial shots it looks quite claustrophobic.  Are the fairways pretty wide for the most part?

Also on the uphill par 3, how steep a rise is it from tee to green?  Can the player see the green or just part of the flagstick?  I rarely see uphill par 3's--most courses seem to like the short downhill over water look.

Great pictures--Don't know about the strategy of the course, but just looking at the greens, it does look like there is a definite "right" place to be.

[Patrick_Mucci]

You missed what I said, I believe.  I said while I love holes like 3, 5, 10, 11, 12, , I'm perplexed by the apparent lack of strategies at holes like 1, 6, 15, 16, 17, & 18.
Mike, # 1 is a benign introductory hole off the tee with strategies on the approach.  I'd say that the same applies to # 6.

With respect to # 15, strategies off the tee and on the approach exist, the choice is yours, cut the dog leg, play to the middle or hit it long and risk the right side fairway bunker.
On the approach, depending on the hole location, you can fly it in or run it in.

# 16 is a long, straight away, testing par 4.
What strategies are you looking for off the tee ?
The second shot calls for options, if you see them.

# 17 is great, off the tee and with your second shot.
Do you risk the bunkers right or left and long and try to get home in two, or do you play safely in the middle, having to carry the middle of the fairway bunkers on your second, or do you play safe, left, on your second, and risk a mis-hit and it's consequences.

# 18, do you risk a right side drive and a prefered angle to approach the green or do you drive safely left and have an awkward angle into the green.

There is no water in play at Hidden Creek and no out of bounds, so high numbers are curtailed by their absence, but, miss # 4 left and you could be on your way to some big numbers.  The same could be said of # 3, # 6, # 9, # 10, # 12, # 16 and # 18.

To make next springs get together more interesting, are you agreeable to buying drinks for everyone, should you make a triple bogie during your round ?  [/color]
 

Your reference to white knuckle shots is interesting.  Let me ask it in a different way.  Is there anywhere you can miss a green at HC where the penalty is realistically more severe than getting up and down in 3 shots, with a good chance at 2?

I'll look forward to you showing me in person.    

[Mike_Cirba]

To make next springs get together more interesting, are you agreeable to buying drinks for everyone, should you make a triple bogie during your round ?  [/color]

Patrick;

You've seen my short game and my putting has left since I saw you last.  

I wouldn't make that bet on a pitch and putt course, but I would make that bet on you, or Tom Paul, or Bill Vostinak, or many others here at Hidden Creek.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have two questions:  The fairways did look fairly generous on the hole by hole photos, but from the aerial shots it looks quite claustrophobic.  Are the fairways pretty wide for the most part?f

Dale, I'd classify the fairways as very generous, with considerable width.  However, some holes, like # 8 have a bunker in the middle of the fairway, so you can risk a narrow gap right, a wider fairway left, lay up, or try to drive over the bunker and onto the green.

The width is deceiving because the approach shot difficulty is often dictated by where your ball is, on the fairway.
Perfect examples are # 2 and # 3.
# 2 fairway is very wide, but if you drive it right, a huge berm with a bunker cut into it blocks your view of the green.

On # 3, if you avoid the right side fairway bunkers and go left, your second shot may be constrained by the intervening trees, hence you have to aim at the huge bunker on the right and lay back, leaving a difficult approach shot.  Whereas, balls in the center or right side of the fairway, can be hit long and up the left side leaving an easier approach.  But, to far left with the second forces you to carry the left greenside bunker.  So one has to tack their way down the fairway, and that's where all of the strategies that Mike Cirba missed, exist.
[/color]

Also on the uphill par 3, how steep a rise is it from tee to green?  Can the player see the green or just part of the flagstick?  I rarely see uphill par 3's--most courses seem to like the short downhill over water look.

You can see the front of the false front on the green,
Perhaps the first 8-10 feet, then,
Only the flagstick is visible.
Invisible is the right green side bunker, which is right up against the narrow green, and all of the trouble long and left.

The rise is gradual until you get near the green when it slopes steeply uphill.

It's a wonderful little hole.  When I played it with two very low handicaps two weeks ago, they both bogied it.[/color]

Great pictures--Don't know about the strategy of the course, but just looking at the greens, it does look like there is a definite "right" place to be.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

WHere did I say I missed the strategies of the 3rd hole?!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

For instance, could you explain to me what strategies are involved in holes 15, 16, & 18, for instance?  I'd probably ask the same about holes 1, 6, and 17, as well.

Mike, Do you think the problem could be that your golfing your ball from the wrong side?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy;

There's no question I'm playing from the wrong side...at least that gives me an excuse for the current state of my game!

However, I'd pose the same question to you.  Can you tell me the strategies of the holes I mentioned?

Similarly, can you tell me what hazard there inspired you in the same way as the DA at Pine Valley?  Which one was calling your name so strongly that you actually tried to hit into it?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
Are you suggesting that Hidden Creek was being designed to emulate Pine Valley?

I'm actually not sure of the question your asking. If your meaning that it needed a knock-down dragout feature like a deep pot bunker, well, I just don't see that happening at this place.

FROM LOOKING AT THE PICTURES, it looks to be a course that is very subtle, yet has width, angles and interesting greens to generate plenty of strategies to the holes. It isn't in your face, but more like Max Behr and Herbert Fowler getting together and saying lets build a golf course not far from the Jersey Shore. It has a lot of Fowler-like hazards. It also looks like on a lot of holes he is sort of giving you an choice of driving through certain necks of fairway to get to the good angle of the green contour.  Some holes you might have a choice of simply laying it up short off of the tee and then going from there. On #18, if one plays that right side of the fairway, it look as if he has a very interesting shot over the fairway bunker or he can chose to cut it around it, or for the rabbit, play it short and then pitch on. It seems as if it would be a tremendous match play hole.

Gotta go, My Dodgers await.

I would think this is a course that isn't going to have that shock value that a Pine Valley does. In fact, I can't think of a lot of courses that do. Judging from what I'm seeing, it looks more like a Moorlands course then it does a Heathlands, and thats only because of the sort of solitary nature of the holes themselves, and its different, which is what Coore and Crenshaw are extremely well at doing.

Personally, I can't wait to get back there and play it, but that's me.  #8 looks to be a kick with that movement in left front of the green and on the green itself.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

One last thing. I don't think this is a course that should be compared to any paticular Moorlands or Heathlands. It sort of has its own thing going on, which I think is what those two types of courses are all about when it comes to character.

[danielfaleman]

Man. Did so many trees have to die for that?

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