Simple Things

[BCrosby]

One of the things I enjoy on courses in Scotland are tees offset to the centerlines of fairways. Royal Dornoch, TOC, Prestwick and other courses have them on many holes.

It is such a simple, effective design feature. In addition to all the usual variables on the tee, offset tees force you to decide how much of the rough you dare to carry. They also pay dividends to shots properly shaped down the centerline.

Offset tees are to tees what Redan greens are to greens.

They are also simple to build, no harder to maintain than in-line tees and they don't require additional real estate. What's not to like?

Two of my favorites in the US are at Merion, the 4th and the 15th. Both terrific driving holes because of the offset tees.

Yet you don't see them often in the US. Why? What are other examples in the the US of good offset tees?

Bob

[Evan Fleisher]

I can't think of any examples off the top of my head Bob, but my gut instinct tells me that today's US golfer just doesn't want "quirk" like that messing with their round of golf...same arguement people make for when the tee markers are not aligned perfectly down the center of the fairway.

You are correct that offset teeing grounds create an additional element of strategy and thought to a round and a course, but it is my impression that today's "average" golfer wants nothing to do with it.  I'm all for it however, if used appropriately!

[TEPaul]

Bob:

My course has a few misaligned tee boxes. Some say Ross got into that occasionally to see if the golfer was paying attention but that just might be apocryphal.

This post of yours did just give me an idea though. In our master plan we're planning on melding together our #11 and #18 tees which are two holes that basically go in opposite directions. That'd make for one enormous tee and it's a bit of a problem getting the tee box sides to line up on the individual holes since we plan to use the front of #18 tee for the tip tee on #11 and the front of #11 as the tip tee on #18!! This is pretty unique and frankly something I've never really seen before.

Recently I just heard the estimate for this new melded tee will be over 40 grand so I just told the Green Chairperson who's about to go into the board meeting in an hour to recomend that we just play the holes from the fronts of either tee as they are now in the opposite direction and save that money.

Perhaps your thread here will be in some way responsible for locking in some quirk at GMGC for the rest of time because playing those tees that way makes them pretty misaligned to the direction of play!

[Brad Swanson]

The way back tee of #5 at Sand Hills is a great example, as you practically hit over the 4th green on a very different line compared to the (straight-on) middle/square tees.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[BCrosby]

Tom -

I remember those tees. As I understand it, to play 11 all the way back, you tee from the  front of 18. With the bonus that the back tee would be offset to the 11th fairway. As Molly Bloom once said....YES.

I was trying to think of offset tees in the US and I was struck by how rare they are. For example, there are none at ANGC, none at PII, none at Pebble....there just aren't very many anywhere. But you find them on almost every other hole on the great Scottish courses. It's very strange.

Evan -

Maybe. But I don't think offset tees are THAT quirky (quirky is Biarritz greens) or present a lot of extra difficulty. By definition there is plenty of bail-out room for weaker players. Dunno. I'm obviously grasping for an explanation.

Bob

[Doug Siebert]

Bob,

I see these on courses that have been lengthened, because a lot of times there isn't enough room in the straight back direction to lengthen the hole.  My home course has a great example of this on #9, when it was lengthened from 426 yards to 449.  That tee is about 40 yards right and 15 feet lower than than old tee, so it plays totally differently from over there despite only adding 23 yards to the scorecard total.

I saw a lot of this on a course I played most recently last fall in Missouri, the name of which is on the tip of my tongue but I can't spit it out at the moment.  It had a bunch of new tees added to bring its length up to 7510 yards, and it plays totally differently from back there more from the odd angles you get than the extra few hundred yards.  I don't really have the skill to work the ball on demand with my driver and it wasn't a problem before on the old tees, but on those new back tees there are several holes where that really becomes a liability requiring a much more precise shot than would otherwise be the case.  Because of the extreme hilliness of the terrain, there are plenty of places where the fairway is on a ridge with ravines of death down both sides, and the more angle you can work you ball the wider and/or deeper you can make your target area.

[Andy Levett]

Prior to the US Open I went to the website and was struck by the number of offset tournament tees on the SH course map. Similarly, at Troon last week, eg 15, where the average hitter had to shape a draw or finish bunkered left or rough right.
 At Dornoch there's a couple of offset blue tees in the dunes coming back that are terrifying to stand on and contemplate even without a club in your hands  (while a child's voice from the beach shouts "Have you found the (cricket) ball yet Daddy?" )
To be honest I had assumed offset tees have been added to old courses and designed at birth into new ones for strong players the world over. If they're not they should be.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Somebody above said you can find a number of off-set tee boxes on Tillinghast's courses, and you say there're plenty of them in Scotland.

The reason then is simple---it's called "alchohol architecture" or more recently termed by me "Flask Architecture". I've offered to give any architect a nice flask but only if he'll promise to fill it with alchohol and use it on site. So far there're four of those flasks out there!

[BCrosby]

I just remembered the terrific offset tee at no. 4 at Cuscowilla. Another reason to like that course.

Tom -

I recall Max Behr wrote something about how offset tees spiced up otherwise dull holes. Can anyone confirm? Tillie recommended them, I think, in one of the collections of his pieces. Which means your booze theory of offset tees has legs.

But drunk or sober, those guys were right. An offset tee can turn a mediocre hole into a good hole. And its simple and cheap to do. The real mystery is why so few designers have built them.

Bob  

[Top100Guru]

Mr Crosby.......I like "offset" tee boxes, because on old courses, oftentimes they set you up to hit to the wrong spot, thus requiring the golfer to actually think before he just puts a peg in the ground.....

 

[TEPaul]

"Mr Crosby.......I like "offset" tee boxes, because on old courses, oftentimes they set you up to hit to the wrong spot, thus requiring the golfer to actually think before he just puts a peg in the ground....."

McConkey:

I do too but unfortunately that's precisely why so many golfers don't like them and they're generally not done.

[Evan Fleisher]

Guys,

My point EXACTLY (as stated above)!!!

[john_stiles]

Bob,

I wonder what old photos or sketches show in regards to offset tees at older courses.  

Thinking of Prestwick and  TOC,  tees must have been relocated several times due to the necessity of lengthening the courses.

With previous short distances being typical from green to tee,   you would end up relocating tees to the sides if green sites were preserved.

Many of the old Scottish courses would certainly pressed to lengthen their courses in the 1910s, 1920s,   maybe more so then today.  This could have resulted in many tees being off at seemingly strange angles.

Wonder what old sketches or photos show ?

[BCrosby]

As an apriori matter, I can't think of any reason why offset tees would aim the golfer towards hazards any more often than inline tees would. Good ones certainly don't and there are plenty of role models for good ones in Scotland, at Merion and other places.

John -

Yes, some offset tees in Scotland are the result of hole lengthening. But even if they were, they still work wonderfully. BTW, I suspect lots weren't built for that reason. See holes 3,4 and 5 at Dornoch. Merion's and Cuscowilla's weren't.

Offset tees was an idea promoted by at least a couple of important Golden Age archies. And though they may have been slobbering drunk most of the time , that doesn't mean their ideas weren't good.

I'm just surprised that such a wonderful, simple design feature has died quietly and without friends.  

Bob

[john_stiles]

Bob,

I like the offset tees however it happens.  

As to the wonderful Cuscowilla, I think the 14th tee is much along the lines of your simple things topic.

I look at the 14th tee as strategic offset. A tee set more along the center of the fairway would have been much more conventional and less interesting.   You have all this fairway to the right (which is the longer route to the hole) but the tee is hard against the left side and the harard is along the left side.  The tee shot is a little unsettling whatever the typical shape of your drive.

It would have been simple and conventional to place the 14th tee aligned along the 'center' of the fairway.