Middle of the Fairway - Where is this a poor strategy?

[Brian_Gracely]

After reading the Shivas "Troon Bunkering" thread, and reading his comments about holes where being in the middle of the fairway is boring or not strategic enough, I got to thinking.....which courses, other than maybe TOC or NGLA, does it not make sense on 12-14 of 18 holes to be in the middle of the fairway?  And has golf become so easy with today's technology that getting it into the middle of the fairway, and at a reasonable distance from the green for your approach, that it shouldn't be considered a good target?  And if you can state an example when left or right side is best, is there also bunkering on the other side or that same side (ala #6 at Seminole), or is it just so the angle to the green/flag is better?

[Tony_Chapman]

Brian - Having played Wild Horse a few times, this bunker on the 7th is dead in the middle of the fairway and seems to be about right where I tend to hit in on the whole.

As far as strategy, I would rather be right of it because its a more open shot to the green.

[Brian_Gracely]

Tony,

Good example and there are plenty of course out there with an example list this (15 at Oakland Hills, 13 at Rustic Canyon, etc.), but I'm looking for a course where the majority of the holes it's not an advantageous place to be in the middle of the fairway.

[John Nixon]

Augusta? While not necessarily penal to be in the middle of some fairways, they are occasionally sloped to provide some benefit to playing one side or the other. On other holes there are certainly favored angles of attack.

[Brian_Gracely]

You see Brian, what you need to realize is that that I've been laying an inescapable logictrap for everybody here who has been waxing on and on and on for years here about width and angles and being on this side or that side of the fairway.  

So after the thread gets 1500+ hits, you're claiming "Jedi Mind-Trick"    

[THuckaby2]

You see Brian, what you need to realize is that that I've been laying an inescapable logictrap for everybody here who has been waxing on and on and on for years here about width and angles and being on this side or that side of the fairway.  

It's one or the other guys!  You either have strategy through width and angles and bunkers that are actually WORTH challenging, or else it's a simple game of hitting it to pre-ordained spots in the middle of the fairway, and whoever does that best and most often (even if he does it with a sissy, hybrid girlie-man club all day) is the most strategic player.  

BUT shivas, oh shivas, oh jedi master... why don't you name one course where any of this matters, for the pros?  This is also part of your game, methinks - use Troon as an example - but to me it's obvious.  These guys are good.  Angles don't matter for shit when one can hit the ball 320 in the air and back up 7 irons from 190.  They don't matter at Troon, they don't matter at Augusta, they don't matter at The Old Course.

But for us regular guys, they do matter.  At least at good courses anyway.

Brian - middle of the fairway is rarely bad.  But it's not always the best option, again at good courses anyway.  Hell Rustic's a good example - center of the fairway is rarely the best option on any hole to any pin - you always seem to want to favor one side or the other.  Us normal guys do anyway.

TH

[THuckaby2]

But again, how is professional golf ever going to be different at ANY golf course?  How was it different at the poster child for all strategy, The Old Course?  Even there, the pros just bashed away to the left for the most part, tried their best to miss the bunkers.  They took no preferred angles, even on 17.

Pro golf is a different game.  Basing any assessment on it seems silly to me.

What am I missing, Obi-Wan?

TH

[Mike_Sweeney]

Yale preferred side:

1  right
2  r due to cape green
3  r so you have some better feel for the blind green
4  left see: http://www.watervilleresearch.com/images/y4f
6  left
7  middle or left
8  right - maybe the biggest advantage at Yale as you can see the green through a dip in the fairway only from the right side
10 anywhere on the fairway, it is a second shot hole
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000445.jpg
11 middle left
12 middle - alps hole depends slightly on pin
14 right due to fairway slope
16 middle
17 right due to Principal's nose - see http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000438.jpg
18 still not sure there is a fairway on the 18th at Yale

[John_Cullum]

So Shivas, the obvious conclusion is-----stroke play is boring at the highest level of play. They need to bring back match play or do some sort of stableford game. Yeah , right.

[THuckaby2]

and therein is the difference.  They "tried their best" to miss the bunkers, but most couldn't.  why?  Because they were gathering bunkers. Moreover, try as they might to play like little girlie man pussies, the Old Course, like a nubile 26 year old part-time secretary who just got dumped by her boyfriend, flashing a little leg -- and a lot of smile -- at the bar at happy hour, is just tempting enough to make even the most committed stray from their game plans.

THAT, my son, is the difference between Troon and the Old Course.  The power of the Dark Side is strong.  Young Jedis may be able to resist the Dark Side at Troon, but not even the Force is strong enough to help them resist the Dark Side at The Old Course, Young Skywalker.

Hmmmm... that's a good thought, and it's certainly well-said, and it did give a good chucklem, but there's one little problem:  it's not true.  I'd venture to say that based on a weighted basis, the pros hit it into just as many bunkers at Troon as they did at TOC.  That is, there are FAR more bunkers at TOC - and at Troon the two toughest holes really have no bunkers in play (11 and 12) - so you'd have to weight it accordingly.  But these guys are so good, they don't hit it into many bunkers period.  On those rare times they stray, it happens, at both places.

Where on TOC do they stray from a game plan?  What hole?  Hell, every single damn hole it's bash away for them.  Get a good bounce, hit it correctly, voila, move along.  Get a bad bounce, hit it incorrectly, pitch out of a bunker.  The poster holes of all choice-making for guys like us - #12 and #14 - are simple bash-fests for them.  Absent any crazy wind, they all try to drive the green on 12, they all hit a drive to the left and some sort of low iron or 3wood to the green on 14.  Where's the game plan to deviate from, even on these great holes?  And sure, they might find bunkers on each of these.  But that's due to faulty execution, not any mental risk-taking.

I just plain don't see how the game is all that different for them at TOC, or Troon, or Medinah, or freakin' San Jose Muni.

Again, for us mortals, it is very different, oh yes it is.

But for the pros?

I don't see it.

May the force be with me.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Yale preferred side:

1  right
2  r due to cape green
3  r so you have some better feel for the blind green
4  left see: http://www.watervilleresearch.com/images/y4f
6  left
7  middle or left
8  right - maybe the biggest advantage at Yale as you can see the green through a dip in the fairway only from the right side
10 anywhere on the fairway, it is a second shot hole
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000445.jpg
11 middle left
12 middle - alps hole depends slightly on pin
14 right due to fairway slope
16 middle
17 right due to Principal's nose - see http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/00000438.jpg
18 still not sure there is a fairway on the 18th at Yale

Mike - from my one playing there, I'd concur with all of that.
But that's for normal golfers.  Would a pro care about any of those angles?  

[A_Clay_Man]

I'd say it all depends on whether the line of instinct (TY TP) is down the middle. If there's nothing to create the Line Of Charm, the game gets bery bery boring, fast.

My new home course has a Baxter Spann nine that has more than a couple of interesting tee shots. Each one takes the golfer away from the line of instinct, to the green. Most golfers are absolutely lost when presented with something so simple yet, it's all new to them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

Other then the 8th hole, it makes strategic sense to be in the middle of every fairway at NGLA.

Shivas,

Could you name 5 golf courses where it doesn't make strategic sense to be in the middle of the fairway ?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike - from my one playing there, I'd concur with all of that.
But that's for normal golfers.  Would a pro care about any of those angles?  

For Pros:

3, 17 and 18 yes due to blindness, 8 probably they drive over the hill anyway, 14 level fairway is always nice for all.

1, 2, 4, 11, 16 probably does not matter to them.

[THuckaby2]

Mike - gotcha.  Yes, even a pro doesn't like a blind approach if it can be avoided, and they do like to have a level lie.

But are any of these things worth any risk to them?

TH

[Mike_Sweeney]

But are any of these things worth any risk to them?

TH

Huck,

Based on my vast experience of caddying 1 Senior Tour event at Newport CC many years ago, I would say it depends. I was on Jerry Barber's bag, and he was a little guy who worked the ball, thus he took a local caddy (me) who knew the course. Sam Snead was almost like a modern golfer where he took an aspiring tour caddy and was mainly focused on distances to the pin. Get the ball out there and then hit it to the pin.

I sort of saw the same thing with Els and Todd Hamilton because of the length issues. There were a couple of holes where it did not make sense for Els to hit drive, but that may be due to my inability to hit a 50 yard wedge.

[Brian_Gracely]

Brian Gracely,

Other then the 8th hole, it makes strategic sense to be in the middle of every fairway at NGLA.

Pat,

Isn't it better to be left on #1 and #17 at NGLA to have a better view of the green?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,

In the context of my game, the incremental benefit is minimal on # 17.

You're playing from about 100 or less yards and the green seems to favor shots hit from the middle of the fairway versus the left side, although the far left side provides better visability.  Being fairly tall, I haven't had much of a problem seeing the flag, and even if I can't, I can get a great directional assist from walking back to the tee a few yards to pick a spot on the dune to hit at.  It's distance control that is the key factor, not direction which is easy to ascertain.

And, you have to ask yourself, is the risk of a pulled shot, or a mishit shot that doesn't carry the leftside bunker off the tee worth the minimal, incremental advantage gained from a successful tee shot.

The same is true of # 1, but I feel the incremental benefit is more substantial then on # 17, but so is the risk on the tee shot.

The approach shot is from about 60 yards or less.
I usually aim right at the right side bunker and try to draw the ball to the left side opening, but, I'm not unhappy with a right center fairway lie.  

Remember, the fairway bowls out considerably to the left and pinches in on the right with a tee shot that lands 210 to 250 yards off of that substantially elevated tee.  This effectively shifts the middle of the fairway to a position just left of the right side bunker, which is ideal, since there's a nice little ridge or spine running up to that corner of the bunker that helps push the ball to the ideal location, right in the middle of the fairway.

Tee shots pulled left can result in disaster, and mis-hits that don't carry the left side bunker complex can be in serious trouble on the very first hole, a hole that sometimes sets the tempo for the rest of the round.  So, I don't know that I would want to take the risk of hitting it left since the incremental benefit is minimal and the risk of disaster, substantial, on the first hole on the golf course.

I like the strategy of aiming at the bunker and drawing the ball, which is my natural or usual flight pattern.  Plus, the prevailing winds usually assist with that shot, and might push a ball hit further left, down the driveway and through the gates.  In other words, you're going to exit the tournament early with failed execution and/or poor mental planning

[Thomas_Brown]

Brian - You've been to Augusta.
I'd say almost every hole one side of the fairway is more strategic than the middle.  And the rough is benign.

[Carlyle Rood]

Until they start conducting major championships where the fairways are greater than 25 paces wide, the middle of the fairway will always be the highest percentage shot.

[TEPaul]

I agree that on most of the holes on most of the courses of this world, even the very good ones, there's generally very little wrong, strategically, with being in the middle of fairways.

They say this is not the case at TOC. Again, this makes one wonder why this interesting element of TOC, considered to be the original prototype for all golf architecture was not more copied around the world this way. I think the reasons are numerous, some very odd, but certainly all very interesting!

And I also think this idea that simply being fine so much of the time in the middle of most fairways was the very reason for an architectural philosopher like a Max Behr insisting on the concept of real width of fairway. One needs that first so one can start to have the space to put something in the golfer's "line of instinct" which certainly can and mostly does mean the middle of the fairway.

You need to take away from the golfer his immediate "line of instinct" and when you do, as Behr said, you create lines of charm!

[THuckaby2]

Gimme the center of the fairway every time.  Whatever obscure oblique angle I might lose to certain pin positions in certain winds or whatever is 10000% made up for by not being in the crud off the tee!  You spot me 290 in the center of the fairway on every hole and I'll take it every time!  Christ, there are guys on this board who could probably win a Tour event if they got spotted that.  I'd win the state am by 10 shots, and with your short game, you'd win the US Senior Am.  And Huck?  Well, he'd finally be able to beat Benham!  

 

Well.... yes and no.  See, I think it's different strokes for different folks, and you've actually stumbled upon an example that hurts your case.  See, certain recent rounds notwithstanding, I am generally a very straight driver of the golf ball.  Getting into the center of the fairway is not my problem, and not why Benham beats me like a red-headed stepchild.  Nope.... he whomps on me because his iron play, short game and putting are MILES better than mine - he makes way less mistakes in each area and gets it way closer way more often.

So sure, for a guy like you who's long and relatively wild but has an otherwise strong game, center of the fairway is the issue.  I'd completely agree that if I could spot you 290 off the tee dead center each hole, you would dominate.  But do the same thing for me and it's not that big of a deal.  My issues only begin at that point.

Thus for a guy like me, well... and I can't believe I'm about to write this... angles do matter.  I don't want to be hitting over hazards if I can help it, with my inconsistent iron play.  I don't want to have to stop the ball quickly, with my inability to do so.  I want to have the most amount of green to work with for my erratic pitches and chips.  All of those things can be given a much larger margin for error if I think well and make good strategic choices, on a course that allows for such and on which it matters.  There aren't many like that - that's been my point over the years here.

Another point I've tried to make that in the past has irked SoCal lefties has been that all of this matters to not many golfers.  For pros, hell they hit so many shots so far and so well, strategy doesn't matter for shit - as I've already tried to explain above.  For a large portion of amateurs, strategy is simply ignored, either intentionally due to macho go for it every time type thinking, or stupidity/inexperience in not being able to recognize its benefits, or even if they are smart and do try to maximime the benefits, inability to actually get the ball to go where they want negates any advantage they might otherwise gain.

So I've always thought it's a small portion of golfers for whom strategy really matters... that would be golfers who can generally get the ball to go where they want, and also care to put the thinking caps on and see why one way might be better than others.  But not golfers who are too good at the game, at which point it ceases to matter....

In any case, yes, center of the fairway is only very very rarely going to be a bad place to be.  You are 100% correct there.  The whys and what fors about all this is where it gets interesting.

And if I am ever to beat my life hero and fellow Santa Clara alum Mr. Benham, I'd say rather than spot me in the fairway, spot HIM in the rough, and give me his game from 170 in and dammit let him putt for me!

TH

[Mark_Fine]

There is a key word some of you are missing on great “strategic” designs – Temptation.  No question, most golfers would take the center of the fairway every time if they could hit it there (unless there is some kind of centerline hazard).  On almost all courses, center of the fairway is probably a good play.  But the greatest designs tempt players to play more along the edges or to carry a hazard to pick up that extra yardage or better angle of attack.  10 yards to one side or the other might mean a clearer view of the green or of a particular pin location.  It might mean not having to carry a hazard to a green unreceptive to an aerial shot.  It might mean playing into a slope to your advantage rather than having it potentially act to propel a ball away from your intended target.  These “temptations” are what create great design.  They are what cause players to “think about” not just playing to the center of the fairway.  

If the temptation is lacking, then the course is likely void of character.  Many modern courses in particular, force all play to the middle and that gets dull quite quickly (even if you can hit it down the middle every time).  

Mark

[THuckaby2]

Mark:

Concur completely.  Temptation is huge in all of this, and Geoff Shackelford writes about it very well in his "Grounds for Golf" book.

BUT... I'd argue that the only golfers who get tempted are the ones for whom strategy matters, as I try to describe above.  That is, it takes a rare hole indeed for a pro to succumb to temptation, and that's gonna depend much more on the competitive situation than the golf hole, really... And in any case damn near every time that's gonna be a go/no-go type temptation, not a temptation to take a better angle.  Angles don't matter for crap when one can back up a 7iron from 190.

Then there's also the large class of amateur who takes EVERY chance there is, just goes for every shot, because he "didn't come here to lay up."  Temptation doesn't exist when one takes every chance....

Then add in the golfers with less physical ability, for whom temptation might exist, but when they can't get the ball there anyway, it's nothing more than a curiousity...

So again, it's a small class of golfers for whom temptation has any effect, also:  those who can get the ball where they want, but not too well, and who rely on thinking to help them out, weighing pluses and minuses.  How many golfers really do that?  What percentage of all players?  I'd say 10% at most.

So that's my beef in this whole "strategy" discussion.  When it matters for only 10% of existing players, why make such a big deal out of it?

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

It goes back to the incremental advantage gained, the risk/reward deviation between center cut and a prefered side.

I didn't say that there weren't more strategic places to be, only that the middle of the fairway is a pretty good strategic point to be approaching almost every green.

Thomas Brown,

I would disagree with you regarding ANGC.
The incremental advantage is minimal, and on many holes, like # 7, # 14 and # 17, practically, zero.

Shivas,

The middle of the fairway has never been a bad place to be, but that doesn't mean that there aren't more preferable fairway locations from which to approach the green.