[Mike_Trenham]

Top notch architects not listed yet

1) Eddie Hackett
2) George Fazio
3) Willie Park
4) Dev Emmett
5) Dick Wilson

Not saying any of these guys are top 10 but their work is excellent and unique

[JNC Lyon]

I am still surprised at the general lack of respect for Tillinghast. Why? He seems to have an amazing number of very high profile course: Winged Foot, Bethpage, Baltusrol, Fenway, Somerset Hills, Quaker Ridge, Philly Cricket, Five Farms, San Francisco, Ridgewood. The list goes on and on.

My US bias stems from the fact that I have not played outside of the United States. Still I should not have overlooked Thompson, as possibly his best course is less than three hours from my door (St. George's)

[T_MacWood]

JNC
I agree with you regarding Tillinghast. I'm also surprised Colt doesn't get more support...I would have thought he'd be in the top 3 on most lists.

Contemporary architects are at a disadvantage, time has positive effect upon one's reputation, I wonder where Dye, RTJ and TFazio will stand twenty, fifty or eighty years from now. Not to mention the relatively young architects who have made a very large splash in the last decade.

[Allan Long]

Re: George Thomas. The fact that some of his courses have been plowed
under should not take away from his place in history. Southern California has grown up a bit in the last 90 years and unfortunately, courses disappear. Couple that with Thomas' influence on Billy Bell's work-including many highly regarded courses of the time like Royal Palms-and Thomas deserves to be on the list.

[wsmorrison]

William Flynn's portfolio may be relatively small, but consider the following designs and decide for yourselves where in the Pantheon of golf architects he belongs. Given that a large percentage of his work is concentrated in a small geographic area, it is understandable that he is not widly known nor appreciated.  It is further complicated in that many course histories are not accurate (Brookline and Shinnecock for example) or they are NLE (Mill Road Farm and Boca Raton South).  I never heard his name mentioned during this year's US Open telecasts.

Shinnecock Hills Golf Club
The Country Club, Brookline
Atlantic City Country Club
Boca Raton South and North courses
Cascades Golf Club
Cherry Hills Country Club
Huntingdon Valley Country Club
Kittansett Club
Lancaster Country Club
Lehigh Country Club
Manufacturers Country Club
Mill Road Farm
Philadelphia Country Club
Rolling Green Golf Club

Including his extensive renovation of:
Merion Golf Club's East Course (I would categorize this as a Wilson/Flynn course)
Philadelphia Cricket Club

Agronomic, construction, and design work at:
Pine Valley Golf Club

[Paul_Turner]

An interesting thread would be... which architect has the strongest list of NLEs.  All of the big names have several celebrated courses that bit the dust.

Which was the greatest NLE?  From photos I reckon it was Alison's Timber Point.  I know many think it was Lido, but the photos just don't show it to be as spectacular as TP.

[wsmorrison]

Paul,
I would like to show you Flynn's drawings of Boca Raton South and aerial photographs (courtesy of Mr. Disher).  I think you might just consider it one of the greatest NLE courses, and on flat land at that.  We have found the Flynn drawings of Mill Road Farm (7000 yards in 1926) and I think you'd find these fascinating as well.  As most know, these courses were celebrated by Dan Wexler in his Missing Links although he got some minor routing and design points wrong regarding MRF.  Adding to the great NLE courses of Flynn would be the new course at Eagles Mere in upstate PA, Opa Locka and Floranada in FL, and Yorktown CC in VA.
Regards,
Wayne

[TEPaul]

Paul:

It would seem from what was commonly reported by so many that Lido had to have been the greatest golf course that's NLE.

If you have a number of old photos of Timber Point they'd be good to see. I've seen photos of Timber Point but they always seem to be the same hole or few holes---particularly the Gibralter!

I feel Perry Maxwell may have been the finest green builder who ever lived and his two greens at Pine Valley are just truly amazing in every way to play. But Alison's greens at PVGC (#6, #11, #9 (right) at least, although vastly different in basic style than Maxwell's or Crump's are amazing too for another reason. Mawell's and the rest have all kinds of little nuancy breaks and rolls all over them but Alison's three (at least) are all of the banking and filter variety. The combination of all that variety is really something else! Crump's #18 in the filtering of its playablility is interesting and very much like Alison's! And Alison's #17 is different in playablilty still---although the "filter" is still it's basic theme!

[Paul_Turner]

I have seen some other photos of Timber Point.

There aren't many photos of Lido, but none of them look awe inspiring to my eye.  I know that Lido was very highly regarded in its day, but in that ranking that Tom Macwood unearthed, TP is ranked well above Lido.  Of course Alison was on the panel

[TEPaul]

One of the real ironies about the Lido, since it was generally considered to be one of the true architectural high points ever is it basically never was in good condition. General care and maintenance was let go so early in the Lido's odd evolution that the course had basically not even matured before those that built it sort of gave up on it, sold it out and the course was allowed to decline in its maintenance practices very early on. This fact comes from Macdonald himself and was one of Macdonald's greatest disappointments!

[Tom_Doak]

I'm always asked in interviews to pick my "favorite" architects, and this I can do.  But I don't believe there is any way to rank the best architects of all time.

What are you ranking?  Peak performance [which is really just their best course, or best handful of courses] or career body of work?  Ability to find clients, or to get along with clients?  Really, I don't think there is ANYONE in a position to know how they did with the land they had to work with ... except the architects themselves, and most of us are biased in our conclusions about our own work.

[TEPaul]

Frankly, the maintenance practices in the early days on a number of the courses that we all consider to be the best in the world was completely deplorable in relation to what we've come to expect today and assume to be standard.

This very much included Pine Valley, The Lido, NGLA and Merion!! On Merion, PVGC and NGLA acceptable maintenance practices took almost ten and in some cases twenty years to achieve!

[TEPaul]

TomD:

I think it's fruitless too to try to actually rank against each other the top ten architects of all time.

However, I do have a number of ideas on why I think Alister MacKenzie, overall, was the best golf architect ever, though. A few of his seemingly novel applied CONCEPTS about golf architecture just took him over and above the rest, in my opinion!

[mark chalfant]

Paul  Turner:
To quote Jim Morrison, or was it Robert Plant,
He who is without sin should not cast the first stone.
By the way, it would be valuable to hear your top ten
in veiw of multiple requests for a more cosmopolitan list.
Wheres yours,did you lose it on the floor of the editing
room at  Convent Garden  !?

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

You're a stickler.

1) Hal Purdy
2) Mal Purdy
3) Rees Jones
4) David Feherty
5) Peter Alliss
6) Severiano Ballesteros
7) David J Russell
Tom Dunn
9) Stephen Kay
10) Harry Shapland Colt

[George Pazin]

No way Dunn is merely 8th! Them's fightin' words!

[mark chalfant]

Paul,
I knew you had played about a dozen courses by Hal Purdy
but I didnt know that you thought he was in the same
league as Fowler, Colt, and Stephen Kay. But now I
remember that you once  told me that Blue Heron Pines
reminds you of Berkshire and Sunningdale. Thanks for your
"contribution."  Ran just told me you've been placed on
probation.

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