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Peter Goss

Practice ranges in golf design
« on: February 10, 2003, 04:04:48 AM »
The magnificent New South Wales Golf Club does not have a practice range - players in last weeks' tournament travelled to a nearby course for their long game practice.
How essential is the practice range on the modern course? When land is at a premium, does the architect have to set out such a facility at considerable cost  given the value of the land? I presume residential land abutting the practice range would be the least sought after and carry the least value. Are there any clever architects that have produced satisfactory alternatives to insufficient land for full practice ranges? Are the designers having to lengthen their practice areas to cope with the new technology?
 What are the trends re practice ranges and are they successful?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad miller

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2003, 04:10:52 AM »
One thing for sure, after the fact added practice facilities have harmed many good-great classic courses. But in this case a least there was some reason for the change.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Josh Taylor

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2003, 07:43:12 AM »
NSW does have a practice range, albeit one that is too short that you pummel the maintenance shed at the end with drivers, but it does have a range that gets used extensively by members.  It’s just that the space that NSW sits on is so limited for tournaments that the range area (adjacent to No18) is needed for tents and all the other infrastructure that goes along with hosting a large golf event.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2003, 08:04:20 AM »
Look at Rustic Canyon and the answer is, from a business perspective, a resounding yes they are needed.

 If you get enough range use, that cash flow is essential.

So, an establishment has to ask itself what it is  and wants to be. 1. A Profit oriented (at the expense of the art) or the kind of place that has a certain feel to it like no other.

For us #$%&ng dilatantes it's a no brainer.

(hey MIke, I bought a dictionary and no what it means now) ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2003, 10:24:53 AM »
I see more ranges going to irons only which will probably help more golfers.  It also stops huge ugly nets from being installed.

I'm sure there are many examples in America but the best course I know without a range is Quaker Ridge in New York.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert "Cliff" Stanfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2003, 12:19:20 PM »
To name a few more with limited practice facilities:
Brookline
Winged Foot
Brookline had a limit on clubs to hit and a limited tee area to hit off.  But they did have a putting chipping green with bunker near frist tee.

Winged foot evidentally had a few holes on the east reserved for practice range during the PGA.

Pine Valley on the other hand has a nice short course to practice off and the tees are actually kept like the fairways.  Giving the player a chance to practice different slopes and lies....instead of a flat tee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2003, 01:30:34 AM »
whats amazing about NSW's range is the number of crows picking up balls and carting them off into the bush! when I was there last time they basically hauled off every ball I hit! Yet when you play the 18th which abuts the range, crows never seem to step onto the course to steal your ball. How is that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2003, 03:25:53 AM »
The most mellow range I have been on is Sand Hills!!  

Just a few sticks thrown down on a bit of turf and a few old trees laid on the ground about 200 yards out and hey presto  -  a Sand Hills range!

To answer the question, we always try to design a range in our designs.  It encourages players to use the club even if they are not going out.

I find that younger players here in Norway tend to use the range too much and not play enough though.

BP
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom Doak

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2003, 01:17:22 PM »
Many classic courses are revered in part because they put the importance of 18 great golf holes ahead of the quality of the range.  Look at the courses built without an adjacent range:  Merion and Pine Valley come first to mind.

Most modern-day clients have been led to believe that a "top quality" practice range is essential to selling memberships or to the cash stream of a daily-fee course.  I have no way of knowing whether this is really true, although it would have to be a major point to justify the expense of a practice facility which costs more than $1 million, as I have seen on some new courses.  

What I can say is that the bigger priority is placed on the practice facility, the more it impacts the best location of golf holes.  Most architects today simply accept this as a "given" like two loops of nine holes, and don't fret about it.  I always look at the golf holes first, and it pains me to have to give up a better routing of 18 holes because the client places a high value on the practice facility.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dr kildare

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2003, 03:43:14 PM »
Moggy,

Ok i'll take the bait....we all know birdies are few and far between when you set foot onto the course !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2003, 03:53:37 PM »
Speaking of limited ranges, when I attended the Masters around 1989, Trevino was hitting drivers that bounced into the net at the far end of the range.  After observing several players flying the net onto Washington Road, Trevino joined them and promptly duplicated their feats - one would hope on a bet.  

I'm guessing the players are limited to five irons there now?

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2003, 04:18:01 PM »
How about the best practice ranges?

 At Trump in West Palm Beach, they have the most beautiful driving range, with real geens. They have 13 flags, so you can go thru your entire bag. The range is elevated about 40 to 50 feet, and the balls seems to float forever.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2003, 05:28:21 PM »
I can't imagine not having a range on a newly planned facility.  In my upper midwest area where weather can bring a few mild days to weeks before official course openings after winter, it is a good profit center for courses to have a nice range that can handle a teeing line with 20-30 stations.  They are full all spring.  I think any course that wants to have serious players should offer an opportunity to hit a few balls at a range before hitting the first tee.  That also goes for enough space for a practice putting green.  One more reason to have a range and practice green, is to have a place to disperse excess tank mixes from maintanence applications, or a place to calibrate the spray equipment, or teach new employees equipment operation.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

John Bernhardt

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2003, 05:42:21 PM »
Bandon Dunes has one of the best practice facilities on earth.
I love it and cannot imagine a golf course without one in this day of time limitations in peoples life.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2003, 07:26:47 PM »
a lot of times the design criterion for a new golf course not only requires a pratice range, but a learning facility as well...combined this can be up to 30+ acres...a major design element to try to accomodate.....Fazio probably does it best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2003, 08:17:10 PM »
Ranges today are essential. It is probably very hard to swallow compromising the golf course for the sake of the range, but it is a must. Not only do players need a spot to limber up before a round, but club professionals need a place to teach. Although not so much the case for head pros, assistant professional garner a very large portion of their rather meagre wages from lessons!!

Tyler Kearns
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dr Kildare

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2003, 08:44:39 PM »
TK

Yes, they sure are essential but what if you have a project that absolutely positively cannot find room for a driving range, but the 18 hole layout is a ripper.

Do we not build it because of the driving range ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

rpurd

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2003, 08:46:20 PM »
Quaker Ridge doesn't have a range (they had to use a fairway for hitting during the Walker Cup).  Winged Foot has an OK range......nothing special but adequate.  Secession has a great dual range......both ends, plus a practice facility across the street.  My club in CT is for irons only.....then we have these stupid wiffle balls if you want to hit woods.........but that is what happens when club was built pre-1900........no room.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2003, 08:52:40 PM »
It is interesting to see what Tom Doak had to say regarding practice ranges. I don't know if Tom had anything to do with the practice range at Bandon Dunes, but it is one of the best I have ever seen.

After an abysmal round on opening day at Pacific Dunes (my play, not the course) I was ready to give up golf. A caddy said I should mention the virgin sweetspots on my clubs as a selling point :). Anyway I retired to the range and figured out the problem and played very well the following day.

The range at Bandon has an area to bang balls, 2-3 greens to hit short irons into, 2 greens separated by about 70 yds that you can pitch back and forth to and work on your sand game, and finally a football field size area of "moguls" that you can set up to practice any kind of lie you can dream of into the short iron greens.

Two great courses and a phenomenal range makes Bandon a classic golf destination in my book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2003, 12:11:18 AM »
Dr. Kildare,
        I personally would leave the range off the plans if it were to compromise a "great" layout. However, sadly, the architect does not have the final say in these regards when it comes to building a golf course. The best they can do is use their professional opinion to persuade the owner/financier to realize they are missing out on a great opportunity. Or, the architect can rework the routing to implement the range with the least degree of impact to the ideal/original routing. Ultimately, it's not up to the architect!
        Trust me, I now how much ranges can harm golf courses (in this case after the fact ranges), I only need to look at the original Doanld Ross course I grew up on!!

Tyler Kearns
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2003, 09:41:43 AM »
David Kidd built the practice facility at Bandon Dunes.  It didn't cost a million dollars like some of Fazio's teaching facilities, because like the golf courses it was all sand ... but a thirty-acre practice facility does not come cheap.

Actually, though, some of you who visited Bandon Dunes early in its life may recall that the original practice range was a small affair parallel to the ninth hole, which got worn out very quickly from the unexpected volume of play.  And even THAT range would have been a golf hole instead, until midway through construction when David re-routed the front nine to use some of the land Mike Keiser had acquired for Pacific Dunes.  Until then, Bandon Dunes would have had no practice facility at all, because David put the best golf holes first.

Tyler, you may be right that ranges roday are essential; all I'm telling you is that insisting that a huge range be convenient to the clubhouse undermines the quality of the golf course.  Substantially!

It's no coincidence that Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes, which most people think turned out pretty well, chose not to build ranges next to their clubhouses.  It's the same decision George Crump made!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2003, 09:26:27 PM »
Tom,
       I agree with you wholeheartedly!! Architects should use all the pursuation at their command in order to convince an owner that a range will harm the quality of the golf course. I personally feel ranges are a good attribute, but not at the expense of the course. However, I do not think that I am in the majority in the larger golfing world.

Tyler Kearns
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark Guiniven

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2003, 02:57:55 AM »

Tom, where is the practice tee going to be at Cape Kidnappers?

When you walked Paraparaumu (28/1/03) did you pay much attention to their redesigned 18th hole/practice fairway/target green/new practice tee arrangement?

How do you like that area now versus before?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Peter Goss

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2003, 03:47:29 AM »
If the best routing means no practice range near the clubhouse, has anyone successfully ventured into the computerised "virtual reality" area for woods and irons, utilising much smaller areas for teaching/warming up with computer analysis complemented by perhaps a real pitching/chipping/bunker/greens complex?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Practice ranges in golf design
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2003, 05:53:16 AM »
I have played the majority of the golf in my life at courses that have minimal (i.e. nets, pitching areas) or no adjacent practice facilities.  These include several well regarded tracks, including the first proper course I played on, Winchester.  Then, and over the next 45 years, I never felt the lack of a practice range to be any sort of detriment to any course I have played.  I am probably in the minority of golfers in this regard, but my belief (hope?) is that practice ranges at golf courses (and posh clubhouses, but that's for another thread.......) have as much economic utility as do tail fins on cars.  Yes tail fins helped sales for a few years in the 60's, but after people wised up to what was of real value to them, they fortunately disappeared.  Will driving ranges and posh clubhouses be next?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »