[kenboyer]

I am a member of a fairly new P. B. Dye-designed golf course.  I have played it maybe 100 times over the past three years.  Bottom line is that I think it is very poorly designed.  Three of the first six holes are virtually identical dogleg rights requiring a carry of as much as 200 yards over water from the intermediate tees.  If you draw the ball it is an incredibly tough shot. Most of the greens are severely undulating to the point that even a 10-15 foot putt can be an adventure, and many of them don't hold even a mid-iron shot all that well.  Several of the cart paths cut directly across the fairways in landing areas where if the ball hits the cart path it can easily go in the water.  In a couple of cases, the cart paths are literally within five steps of the green.

I think the other P.B. Dye-designed course in my area is equally poorly designed.

So here's the question: is it just me or are most of the courses he has designed just not very good?

The irony is that I love the six or seven Pete Dye courses that I have played.  They are tough, but (mostly) fair.  P.B.'s courses seem (for want of a better description) "tricked up."

[Andy Hughes]

Ken,
I can't claim many PB Dye courses, but the one I have played, the PB Dye Club here in Maryland I actually found to be fun. The holes were a very good mix, with some cool shots.
Andy

[david h. carroll]

Andy--I second that...I really enjoyed Rum Pointe over in Ocean City as it was loaded with options, wind, and some wild green/bunker complexes.

[GDStudio]

Just cause he has the Dye name, doesn't mean he has a clue...

There are plenty of examples of siblings "falling close the the tree" but there are many that tend to roll down the hill and into the gutter.

NOW, before anyone blasts me for saying PB is in the gutter, I am only defending Ken having an opinion.  I do not know enough about PB's courses yet.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Were you able to play the original P.B. Dye Golf Course? I liked the manner by which the original course was prepared but I hear changes were made sometime after the course opened because certain people were barking / whining on about how too demanding the putting surfaces were.

Any comments?

P.S. The back-to-back par-4's, 4th and 5th are truly unique. The fall away green at the long 5th is something special. Were the greens on these holes changed?

[Shaun Carney]

Ken

I've played two PB Dye designs and found them to be fun to play. Iron Valley is about an hour drive from Philadelphia and is quite unusual in that it was built in and around an old iron ore mine. The other is Rum Point Seaside Golf Links which David just mentioned. I like both, but they do have their share of goofy holes. Also Ken, I do agree with your use of the term "tricked up".

[david h. carroll]

Shaun--what goofy holes at Rum Pointe?  I'll grant you that having 9 and 18 finish around the pon behind the clubhouse is a bit gimmicky, but they're still pretty solid.

[Andy Hughes]

Matt,
I assume we played the original version. This was either 2 or 3 years ago, but I think the course had only recently opened.  I found the greens to be challenging but I would not at all have considered them too demanding.  If anything, I thought they were interesting and a refreshing break from the ordinary.
I agree re 4 and 5; very good holes and I could add several more to that list. I especially liked trying to go for 12 in two; the pot bunkers and the green made that a very interesting hole for me.

[Shaun Carney]

David

Yes, the 9th and 18th wrapping around the same pond is a bit gimmicky and redundant but nice holes all in all. I can't recall the number( maybe 3?), but there is a par five that starts in the woods and comes out along the water that, for some reason, plays like 400 yards? I know that I'm not going crazy because I've heard the same from other people. There are one or two others that I'm looking for now on their site. Don't get me wrong. Like I said, I think both of the PB courses that I've played were fun. They just both contain, IMO, strange holes.

I could/would most certainly use the same "goofy" term for a bunch of holes at the new "top course" in Ocean City, Links at Lighthouse Sound, which is supposed to be the new King of OC, MD golf. Nice. Fun. With a touch of goofiness

[david h. carroll]

Shaun--yes, you're thinking of #3 which is 509yds from the tips....it ceratinly plays like a par 4, I think I had 8 iron in, but I believe it's designed so that you can try to bite off as much as you can chew....and if you remember the green, it has that severe back right portion that is a tier below the front and left...pretty tricky to hit anything in there tight...I know, I had a three putt par

I haven't played LightHouse yet, but have heard very mixed reviews, especially on this board....as to another conversation, I feel as though I like Eagles Landing less each time I play it.

[Shaun Carney]

David

You're right. It was 3. You're also right about that green. That lower right portion requires a nifty little shot if you want to avoid a roller coaster putt. That tier is hidden by a front right bunker? Good green.

Lighthouse is really nice and beautiful, but it has some really contrived holes to go along with it's magnificant ones.

As for Eagles Landing, I loved it the first time I played. And the rating keeps going down everytime I go back. Beast of the East 18th? Give me a break. A forced layup tee shot?

[david h. carroll]

Shaun-the 18th at Eagles landing is a joke....there's no landing area on the tee shot...even if you throttle back with a 4 or 5 iron, the fairway is awfully small...I don't see the strategy.

[Shaun Carney]

Ken--Does the rest of your membership feel the way you do in regards to the design of the course? Has anyone approached mgt?




David---Any word on the new complex down in OCMD? I think it's called Glenriddle. 36 holes named after famous race horses..War Admiral and Man O War I think.

[Jerry Kluger]

I'm sorry but one time was too much for me to play PB Dye in Maryland.  And I might add that the public's perception is not very positive as I understand it has been in financial trouble from the beginning and cannot compete with the other courses in the area.  The design is simply over the top and even though I have heard that they have redone a few of the holes, the land offered a tremendous opportunity and it simply turned out bad.

[Bill Gayne]

Ken,

I've heard mixed comments on Atlanta National with back to back blind par fours. I have not played the course though. Black Bear in Eustis Florida is supposed to be good.

What led you to join a golf club if you don't like the golf course? Why do you stay?

[astavrides]

i didnt like pb dye club either.  one problem was too many blind shots off the tee.  

rum pointe was pretty good.

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry K:

Can you tell me where P.B. Dye Golf Club went wrong? I didn't think that. If some people have a bitch about the place it's likely they need to take some putting lessons or hit their approaches a tad bit closer to the hole.

Like I said the par-4 4th and 5th holes were quite good and I enjoyed the unique short par-3 11th.

Frankly, when a course completely capitulates because a few people bark and whine I have to question the smarts of the management.

Be very much interested in any specifics you can bring to the table. Thanks ...

[MBL]

Ken-

I completely agree with your questions on the PB Dye course in question.  Can you imagine teaching your wife or kids to play (or to love the game of golf) on that course?

I don't have as much problem with the second PB-design in the region, but feel that the course gets away with less criticism than it deserves because of the superb maintenance, clubhouse, etc.

And I enjoyed my round at Rum Pointe, but felt it almost too "resort-oriented", i.e. could have been more challenging (or at least more consistent with his other works) around the greens.

My question is how much influence Pete (and Alice) Dye have had on PB's work over the years?

[TEPaul]

Wish I could help, but I can't. I've known P.B. Dye for a few decades but I don't know anything about his courses, except the one at Palm Beach Polo and the last time I played that I basically knew nothing about the details of golf architecture and really didn't care!

[Andy Hughes]

Jerry, well, I guess that's what makes a horse race!
I had not heard the course was not faring well.  Too bad, as I enjoyed my one day there.
Matt, I guess it's up to you and me to be the course's lone fans.

[Peter_Collins]

P.B. designed a municipal/private developer project in my area that has been an unmitigated disaster.  Half the course is built in a flood plane which may or may not be his fault.  However, the double dogleg par 5 third is his fault.  As best I can tell the best way to play this hole is 5 iron off the tee to "position A" to hit the second shot which is a 245 yard carry over wetlands to a blind landing area.  The demanding second shot is rewarded with a full wedge over an old oak tree to a narrow two level green which runs diaganolly (sp) away from the fairway.  The course also features a par 3 from an elevated teebox to a blind green which runs away from the tee box to a lake. Par threes to blind greens may be charming on private course in the Hamptons with 200 members, but on a muni in the middle of Kansas its a flippin' mess.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have played P.B. Dye GC and Iron Valley. Both are interesting and different public courses but I would not play either on a regular basis if I lived in the area. They are fun to play but perhaps too demanding for the average public golfer. I would classify both as a "once a year" course.

From www.pbdyegolf.com

"I just hope that every golfer has as much fun playing here as we
did creating the P. B. Dye Club" -P. B. Dye

"Every time I set foot on this property, I know that great golf will be played here.  Every person will feel the excitement that this place has to offer.  The true test of the game of golf and the camaraderie that goes along with it are all part of the P. B. Dye Club."  - P. B. Dye

"Playing this golf course 'once' will not be enough, or should I say 'once a day.'  The course has a give and take quality.  You never know which hole will give and which one will take." - P. B. Dye

[TEPaul]

Although it's off the subject of P.B.'s courses somewhat I should tell you a story of the last time I saw P.B. It was during the Florida International that was being played on both courses of the Palm Beach Polo Club, one course being P.B.'s. I think I mentioned some of this before on here but my partner and I were paired with P.B and Davis Sezna (Wilmington De) who owned Hartfeld National. P.B and Davis are individually two of the funniest men I've ever met but put them together on a golf course and it gets pretty hard to concentrate.

P.B didn't seemed that interested in anything about his course except how the grass was growing in his greenside chipping areas! On one of the first 2-3 holes P.B hit a drive right, took off in his cart over a berm and crash landed in a bunker on the other side. After dusting himself off and getting his cart righted he exclaimed; "What idiot hid a bunker here where I couldn't see it?"

Somewhere between the 15-17 holes P.B and Davis got on a non-stop humor banter and my partner and I were laughing so hard our stomachs started to hurt, we couldn't play a few of our shots and we all got cited for being out of position.

Last time I heard about P.B. was the last time I saw Pete Dye about 3 years ago. I asked him how P.B was and what he was doing and Pete said he was over in Rome trying to get started on a course next to the Vatican. He said the course was held up for a while so P.B. got bored and built a large practice range on the site just so he could hit balls all day waiting for things to get going.

Pete, said life sure can be strange sometimes---if one imagines P.B and the Pope together. He said there can't be a greater "Odd Couple" than those two!

[mike_malone]

 Did he also do Chesapeake? I found Iron Valley enjoyable.

[Ken Fry]

Played the Moorland Course at the Legends complex in Myrtle Beach about 6 years ago.  Let's just say we changed all our scheduled tee times to play Doak's Heathland course the rest of the time we were there.

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