US Open worthy daily fee tracks?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lynn,

There may be a legitimate concern that with little or no alteration to existing golf courses the USOPEN would turn into a desert like shooting gallery, losing its uniqueness and popularity.

If substantial winds are the only impediment to scoring, who would risk a calm week, and the money ?

I think Geoff's article touched on the basic problem.  That the USGA may be burning the candle at both ends, and that usually leads to disastrous results.

Someone has to take a stand and stop the distance trend, and as I see it, the more the clock keeps running, the less likely they will be in achieving their goal in establishing reasonable limits.

I'm both puzzled and concerned.  Puzzled as to why the delay in creating an intelligent solution, and concerned for the USGA's ability to maintain its leadership and role as protector of the game.

[Paul Richards]

Patrick:

You bring up a good point.

Kemper Lakes hosted the '89 PGA Championship.  That summer
I must have played it 15 times before the PGA, and, each
and every time me and my buddies played it, we played from
the tips.

Well, the PGA came in and played it from about the blue
tees - I remember the grand stands on #17 were sitting on
the gold tee!  

Anyhow, this was a brutally hard course, and whenever you
played it, the wind just howled!

The week of the PGA, it was 80 degrees and sunny and not
a whiff of wind!  The pro's destroyed the place, and since
then, the reputation of the place suffered tremendously.

So the lack of its usual wind really cost Kemper.

It fell off the Golf Digest Top 100 list the very next time the
list came out.

IMHO, although I don't love it or anything, Kemper Lakes is
the second-best public course in the Chicago area (after
Dubs).  Nothing else even comes close.

[George Pazin]

What about you guys who are high on Barona? Doesn't sound like Todd would design a pushover...

What if San Fran ever got its head out of ... & fixed up Harding? Weren't they thinking about holding the Tour Championship there? It must be at least challenging.

Matt Ward -

Wouldn't 7000 yards in Utah be pretty much a driver-PW course for you?  

[John_Conley]

Of all events, the US Open is the one least affected by site.  The set up is usually narrow fairways, long rough, and greens on the verge of cracking they're so hard.  I think they painted them at Hazeltine for TV, but they were just what they wanted for playing conditions.

Give the USGA 7300 yards (or equivalent if at altitude) and they could deliver an event worthy of Major status with two years of prep and the requisite spending allowed.

[BillV]

George

For perspective re:Utah

In Colorado a 6850 course was basically 3-wood wedge for me and Matt is quite a bit longer than me. You can't build a course solely on length at altitude.  It really helps you understand strategy and the effects of equipment to play there for more than a little while.

In CO  Sea Level
  
   PW       8i             150yds
   6i         4i             200yds
   2i         3w           250 yds
   3w       D (Maybe) 300 yds


  100 yds left out because it all depends on trajectory with more than 50* loft

[Matt_Ward]

GeorgeP:

The Golf Club at Thanksgiving Point plays from the tips 7,728 yards and if necessary you can stretch it a bit further to compensate for the higher elevation. I agree with JohnC other elements of prepping can be added with other elements to test the big boys.

I'm not saying the course is the "perfect" option for an Open but what is?

Even Bethpage Black (a course I love very much) has issues with a number of greens being flat or relatively unchallenging.

I believe if you played Bandon from the tips and changed the two par-5's on the back side you would have a good test -- a par-70 in the range of 7,200 along the unrpedictable coastline of Oregon! WOW!!!

The issue at Bandon? Having the wherewithal to have support facilities for what a modern day Open has. I personally think it's worth doing. Years ago the same argument made about Pinehurst #2 (remote location, June weather in the South, blah, blah, blah). Now, Pinehurst is fixed on the unofficial rota.

Bulle Rock is also a possibility but I wonder if the USGA will stage an Open event on a Dye course? I know there are some people (i.e. Mike Cirba, among others) who don't particularly like the course.

I agree with Bill V that higher altitude locations do present issues but it's not impossible. I mean let's not forget the USGA has used Cherry Hills and the last time they were there the winning total was 285 at the '78 Open (remember Andy North!) and the '85 PGA (Hubert Green) with a 278 total.

GC at Thanksgiving has the issue I stated before -- no Sunday golf permitted but if St. Andrews could make the adjustment I see no reason why it could not be done here.

One last note -- when people say Torrey Pines / Soth is 7,600 yards I always wonder are they really playing the ENTIRE course or is that figure more for PR hype? Usually, many of the tour events I've ever seen have not played the max on all four days. The tour staff do make concessions to weather and other considerations (let's not make it toooo hard!).

[BillV]

I was watching a tape on TGC of Cherry hillls the other day (Senior Open '93?) and they called #11 (595ish) unreachable.  I think I hit it with 1 or 2 iron the last time I played.  #10 there is 460 and it was sand wedge even in 1995.

Altitude is funny stuff. Drive the ball solid and high and Katie bar the door.

Jim Engh built a very nice muni for Castle Rock called Red Hawk Ridge. I played it with 976R Titleist and Maxfli Elite (Not exactly hopped up technology), had a good driving day the one time I played it in 1999.  I hit 3 par 5's with wedge (2nds, not 3rds, smarties   ), seriously.  Carying sentinel bunkers I was in position A.  I can't even begin to keep up with Matt.  You just can't design around that kind of length.  Playing at altitude is a preview of more and more technology.

It's probably already too late.

[Lou Duran]

Patrick:

We are all painfully aware down here of the USGA's "too hot to play" argument.  Apparently the NCAA was not prudent in its decision to hold the Division I championship on the Grand National Links course (Opelika, AL) during the first week of June, 2000.  Was Southern Hills that bad last year?  I carry my own bag during the summer, generally in the early afternoon and I am not the worse for wear.  I would hope that these younger, superior athletes and their caddies are able to get around with minimal jeopardy to their health.

BTW, I am not advocating going to AL for the Open.  My original reply was to suggest that there are other public venues as worthy as Torrey Pines.  However, it would be a nice gesture for the USGA to rotate the Open throughout the country once or twice every decade to trully public courses such as Bethpage.  I believe that there are enough of these courses that with $3 million in renovations, they would provide very suitable venues.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou Duran,

My position had nothing to do with athleticism, rather the ability to maintain fast and firm conditions on the greens.

Venturi in 64 was a study in survival, an athletic achievement, playing 36 holes the final day, in hot, humid conditions.

I was talking about the survivability of the greens, not the players.

If one or ten players drop out, no big deal.

If one or ten greens drop out, disaster !

[Lou Duran]

Patrick:

Generally speaking, Southern bent grass greens are in good shape through June.  The real stress sets in during July and August.  Granted, as a result of three or four of weeks of preparation and US Open play they would be further stressed, which could result in poor conditions for the regular players after the tournament.  I think that most of these players would feel that the honor of holding the tournament and the financial largess for improvements to the course that it brings more than offsets the sacrifice.  In any event, there are new strains of bent that are highly heat-resistant, and as you know from your Florida experience, there are bermuda hybrids which come close to performing as well as bent.   And as I recall, June is a fairly rainy month up north.  Holding the Open up there is not a guarantee for firm and fast conditions.  Again, I don't have a problem with most US Open venues.   I loved the tournaments at Shinnecock, Baltusrol, Merion, and Oakmont.  But if the tournament is going to Bethpage, and maybe Torrey Pines, bring it down here some time.  It has been done in the past and I don't recall its reputation being tainted (the tournament's or the USGA's) as a result.    

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

There is nothing wrong with some of the courses you mentioned in Alabama (i.e. Grand National Links) possibly hosting a future Open or PGA. The weather issue is less, if a factor at all, given previous locations for major events and the manner by which staffs are able to keep the turf alive.

I agree the Open should rotate since the Northeast has had more than its fair share of Opens. I would hope the USGA would keep its eyes open for all possibilities because public golf sites do exist for such an event.

A few years ago if you had mentioned Bethpage Black and the US Open in the same sentence many people would be on the floor laughing. They're not laughing anymore ...

[Doug Petersan]

Wild Horse in Gothenberg, NE would be wonderful, a 30 mile an hour wind, greens about as firm as an asphalt parking lot and a great golf course.  Add a few tees to add some length to a few of the par 4's and the pros wouldn't know how to play the course.  Most of them have never seen conditions like that.  Plenty of parking around the course, unfortunately no people so the parking wouldn't be needed.

[Scott_Burroughs]

My only beef about Dubsdread is that only foursomes can book tee times, not threesomes or twosomes.  What's a single to do?  Just come on out and hope someone doesn't show.

[Paul Richards]

shivas:

Glad to hear someone else liked the old Dubs better.

As much as I like it today, there was just something about
that sand, and the forest that used to be to the left front
of the 13th green, etc. etc.

It looks much prettier today.  But is it better?  Not in my
book.

[K. Czescik]

I agree with SPDB, and wonder if anyone else has any comments on Crumpin-Fox Club, in western Ma.  It is a very well respected layout and has been much improved from a condition standpoint in the last two years.  They have also added some tees and rebuilt some bunkers.  The course is extremely challenging and with longer rough and faster greens would prove to be a great test for even the best players inthe world.  What do you think?

[Tony Ristola]

Just thought it would be interesting to bring this thread up one year later and see if anyone has found anything new.

[Jeff Fortson]

I may get some flak for this but I think The Concord-Monster has the length and with the right prearation could host a U.S. Open.  Do I think the course should host one?  Probably not.  Location is way out of the way, too much water, and you'd have to prep the course for it.  

This is the only daily fee that I could think of that wasn't mentioned.  

If Torrey Pines were not near a major city and not on cliffs overlooking the Pacific Ocean they wouldn't even play the Southern California Mixed Senior Championship there.

Jeff F.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I'll throw out Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills in Manhattan, KS.  ~7500 yards and is supposed to be TOUGH.   Great prairie location/look, seemingly unlimited room for tents, in a college town for hotel space and nearby Topeka would house many other fans bused in.  No much more remote than Pinehurst.

[Matt_Ward]

K. Czescik:

I've played Crumpin-Fox and concur with your thoughts about the quality of the course -- it's likely the finest public course in Mass. However, a major event like the Open? I think you're pushing it a bit unless the fairways were as wide as a church pews. The first few holes on the course would be a great way for professionals to make a good share of birdies.

I do like the course (the 8th is a gem of a par-5), but there'd have to be some major league tweaking in order to tackle the world's best.

Scott B:

You mentioned Colbert Hills. All I can say is the layout is a tiger and when you add Kansas wind you can clearly have an Open if people could handle the adventure in getting to the center of the USA!

[JohnH]

Sheesh, with all the rain at Torrey Pines this week and the state of the rough, the USGA has to be pleased with the prospect of the Open in '08.  Watching these guys hack it out of there makes it seem like an Open.....