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TEPaul

US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« on: February 08, 2002, 04:00:25 PM »
On the recent Riviera thread somebody said that although it's commenable that the USGA seems to want to take the US Open to more daily fee tracks that they shouldn't sink so low as to take it to Torrey Pines. I know Pebble and Bethpage are well known and great daily fee tracks but after that I really draw a blank.

What are some of America's great daily fee tracks? I never thought I would ever stoop to something this low myself (not the daily fee tracks, mind you) but I'm going to ask you to RANK and RATE in ORDER, numerical order, of best architecture and infrastructure the top ten daily fee tracks in America worthy of a US Open.

(Whew, that only hurt for a moment)!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2002, 04:17:51 PM »
TEPaul:

You mean REAL daily-fee courses, not resort courses.

In that vein, I offer you:

1. Bethpage Black
2. Cog Hill #4 - Dubsdread
3. Torrey Pines (although after someone shot a 61 there today, I don't know about its viability for an Open)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

brad miller

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2002, 04:24:01 PM »
was the 61 on the south today? tiger shot 77. 18 hole is a complete bore, really hope they don't get the open. Pinehurst #2
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2002, 04:38:03 PM »
Dye's courses are the only ones I can think of off top of my head.  Kiawah, Blackwolf (composite or River), Whistling (not for its crowd accomodating facilities however).  I wish I could come up with another worthy muni like Torrey.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2002, 04:46:03 PM »
brad:

got bad info.  the 61 was NOT shot at Torrey Pines, but in
South Africa!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2002, 04:53:45 PM »
Are PH and Pebble "daily fee tracks"? They aren't for most golfers (some people have house payments to meet) but anyone who is patient can play Bethpage. I assume Torrey Pines is in the same league. After seeing the new So course, I hope the Open isn't held there but I'm glad the USGA is considering it. Are there any other Bethpages?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2002, 04:55:28 PM »
RJ's comment on Dye courses has some merit. I think that
Bulle Rock in MD. was put together with an eye on attracting
a big tournament down the road. I bet we'll see more publicly-
accessible courses used in the future. Brad Klein wrote about this very topic, but I can't seem to locate the article.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2002, 05:17:24 PM »
Being a Chicagoan and always having had a special place
in my heart for Dubsdread, when the USGA first proposed
hosting a US Open on a true public course, the people in
Chicago got all excited, because most feel that Cog Hill #4
would be worthy. ;)

However, after having had the pleasure of touring around
the Black, I certainly understand that choice.  No longer
did I feel that Dubs was the BEST true public course. :'(

Instead, I now believe that Dubsdread is the second-best
truly public course in the good 'ol USA.! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2002, 06:01:02 PM »
I hope this post continues not so much to rank but to bring attention to daily fee courses with great strategic strength. I am only famiiar with Pebble and Pinehurst 2 that belong in this club. I hope there are many others. I do not think Torry Pines is one of them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2002, 06:14:11 PM »
TEPaul,

Shouldn't we have some collective experience under our belts relative to the revised Torrey Pines before making any judgements on its worthyness ??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnV

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2002, 06:14:14 PM »
If you are going to count Pebble and Pinehurst, you've got to count Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes also.

Ghost Creek at Pumpkin Ridge has been mentioned by the USGA on more than one occasion.  At times they have talked of a combo course with Witch Hollow (private), but at others they have talked about lengthing Ghost Creek and using it.

Given that Tiger shot 77 and Lefty shot 75 at the South Course today, I think that it meets the USGA requirements. :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2002, 09:38:56 PM »
The Bayonet, check the Tour Qualifying scores and they don't play the back tees.  Plenty of parking on room for corporate on the Blackhorse course.
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Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2002, 10:31:28 PM »
There are three courses that jump out in my mind:

Bethpage Black
Bulle Rock -- although I don't like it, the course is definitely hard.

But the one that has not been mentioned is:

Beechtree

I personally think it's really difficult and that's not to say that I did not play/score well there because I actually did.  With the necessary fairway tightening and a few new tees to get the length to about 7350 yards, it's all the course you'd ever want.  This is especially considering that they can get the course hard and fast without too much difficulty.  Those greens would give the pro's fits in my opinion.  Having made only one visit to play, I may be a bit bold in my talk, but Beechtree's a real handful in my mind.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2002, 06:43:35 AM »
Hasn't anyone out there played Dubsdread?

I figured there would be more comments about its
qualifications ...  ??? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

BillV

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2002, 06:50:11 AM »
With all due respect to Tom Doak's fine work at Beechtree, which I like a lot, it could never host an Open.  Dubsdread has never been played back by the professionals, it is more than worthy back there.  I have logged maybe 40-50 rounds there, at least as many as Olympic Lake (See other thread  ;) )Torrey probably can get the job done now. The Black, we'll see how the greens hold up. Not many true daily fee.

As for Pinehurst, Pebble and the like at $300+, those are not daily fee in my book.  Maybe a new category, "daily wage"?  For any Joe making $30k a year, that's way more than a full day's take home pay!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2002, 07:29:33 AM »
What about Crumpin-Fox? The crowds might be a little problem, but I certainly not logistically impossible.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2002, 07:49:57 AM »
The Dubsdread is a great golf course.  Lots of room to make it as big as you want, a super mixture of long and short par 4's. The 14th par 3 with a wildly convoluted green where you can aim at the upper right to reach a lower left pin.  And throughout the course wonderful greens complexes with bunkers tightly cut into lobes (?) of the greens, most of which are somewhat cloverleaf in design, so that what look like large greens in effect become several small greens closely protected by deep bunkers.  The course has excellent terrain and a two loop routing where the holes run in different directions and the tees are close to the greens.  It would be a super course to play every day, if a bit wearing.  It would be great for a US Open because they are already prepared for a large, prestigious tournament every year.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lou Duran

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2002, 08:02:18 AM »
There are 2-3 courses on the RTJ Trail in Alabama that are probably as worthy as Torrey Pines: Grand National-Links, Cambrian Ridge, Capital Hill- Senator.  All have the length and can be set-up to yield whatever score the USGA deems appropriate.  They probably also have enough open space to handle the corporate necessities and the crowds.   Put a couple of million into any of them as at Bethpage and I think that they could provide a good venue.  However, weather and politics probably will never allow that to happen.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2002, 08:10:17 AM »
Having only played Dubsdread once (and that was about 10 years ago), I would say that it could certainly be turned into a US Open worthy venue.  How high do you want the rough?  How fast do you want the greens?  Bunkers galore, length, strategic tee shots for the right approach into greens.  I think the course stacks up well, and would serve the Open proud.

And like BillM said, they are already prepared to host a large tournament due to the Advil/Motorola/Whoever-The-Sponser-Is-Now Western Open.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Matt_Ward

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2002, 08:40:46 AM »
Gentlemen:

Within the broad category of daily fee you have some fine distinctions.

First, there are taxpayer owned facilities (i.e. Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines, etc.). When you really begin to analyze what is available in the USA under this heading the pickings are indeed slim from a "course worthy" consideration before you get into crowd and logistical concerns.

Second, you have privately owned but available to the public on nearly 100 percent basis. The examples are Pebble beach and Pinehurst #2 are two of the best known.

Third, you then have facilities that are semi-private. These are facilities that permit public play at certain times. They may have a membership of some number or are connected to a facility (resort) which permits outside play within certain parameters.

From a personal level I read in Golfweek that Bandon is being considered for a USGA Mid-Amateur. I would like to see the Open go there because I think the course has the muscle (reduce the two par-5 on the back nine) and wherewithal to host an Open. However, it's remote location is probably not going to permit that to happen.

I'll throw in another course that probably few have played and it's located in the west. The Golf Club at Thanksgiving Point (Lehi, UT), just south of Salt Lake City, is long enough (way over 7,000 plus yards), has a metro area nearby and the Johnny Miller designed course could be modified beyond its initial difficulty to host an Open. The catch? The present owners are Mormons and the course is closed on Sundays (last I checked).

I'll reserving comment on Torrey Pines until I see the results of this week's tour event and when I visit there later this year. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2002, 11:49:44 AM »
Lou Duran,

I would imagine that the difficulty in hosting a USOPEN in Alabama in JUNE has more to do with its rejection due to climate rather than politics.

I think the USGA would love to show the flag in the southeast and southwest, but maintaining firm and fast conditions in southern climates in JUNE is almost IMPOSSIBLE.

When the USGA held the Mid-Amateur at Anandale in Jackson,
Mississippi, in OCTOBER, the greens were difficult to maintain to spec, and the club almost lost some of them.  The greens also changed in condition as the tournament progressed, such that the greens pre or early tournament were dramatically different from the greens toward the end of the tournament.
In addition, the greens had to be syringed frequently during play.  At match play, one could argue equitable treatment, medal play presents another problem.

Let's be practical, not biased.  Holding a USGA competition in the deep south in JUNE is not a PRUDENT idea.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Lynn Shackelford

Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2002, 12:40:45 PM »
:o I suppose I don't conform with most of you, or you have fallen into the USGA mind set.  I don't equate length with good, and difficulty with great test.  The USGA has moved that way recently.  What was it Frank Hannigan said about the best Open during his watch as Executive Director, 1974.  Best course, Merion, best players Nicklaus and Trevino.

I say stick them out there on the back tees at  Pacific Dunes or Bandon Dunes in the wind, it is a good test, and one's length will matter little.  That will identify the best players no?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2002, 01:34:19 PM »
Lynn:

I agree with you.  Length isn't the only criteria.  Of course,
it needs to be long enough to challenge, but I would much
rather see the big boys play at Merion again, than see them
hit Pro V Tens to the 600-yard par 4's of the future ...

Hint to USGA/ R and A - if you don't get your act together,
Tim Finchem says the Tour will take over the job of supervision.

Memo to Mr. Finchem - please rein in the golf ball!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jeff_Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2002, 01:54:25 PM »
Paul,

I hate to go against the tide, but I would have to say that I don't think Dubsdread is either the genuine muni that most people are looking for here, nor is it good enough even if we are going to extend our search into high end daily-fee land.

Pebble and Pinehurst may be pricey, but at least one can pick up the phone and arrange to play there no matter what. The only reason a course as good as Bethpage is a municipal facility, is because of the Depression. The whole complex was a public works project. Perhaps, with Nick doing a course for NYC in the Bronx, and Dye doing a course here or there for a dollar, we are on the way to, for the first time, creating very high level, truly public facilities. But let's not have the USGA force the issue. 10-15 years from now, there may be several munis worth holding the event. Let's be patient and grateful for the increase in quality in the high-end daily fee market.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: US Open worthy daily fee tracks?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2002, 02:32:08 PM »
Jeff:

How come you don't think that Dubsdread is worthy? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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