[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I was surprised all day sunday as the leaders kept hitting drivers off the tee and into the rough. They also were hitting lob and sand wedges down wind very often as well. What am I missing. why hit a driver in the rough 50 to 70 yards from the green when you could be in the fairway 100 to 150 out. and why not bounce the ball in down wind rather than try to spin a lob wedge of those fairways. I expected more of an Open style of play.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I still am not sure of why they would want to attack the 10th green blind from the valley 30 feet below the green rather than stay at the top of the hill and get a good look with a 7 or 8 iron.

[Tony_Chapman]

Mike - I thought the same thing. Would the ball not come in higher? Since there were so far down there, it was like there were coming in with a 5-iron to that thing? I could be wrong, I have never been there.

[JakaB]

My God Shivas...what side of the fence are you on....you just described a strategic choice.   You may note that the winner was hitting iron off of the tee where the losers were hitting drivers.....even if he didn't hit it very well.    I'm gonna be gone for three or four days but I bet by the time I get back the majority of this group will finally get it....get it that this was the perfect set up for a Sunday at the US Open.  

[ForkaB]

I don't want to be too heretical here, but..............

.......... if two of the finest players in the world can't hit greens either from the fairway or from the rough, isn't there maybe just a little bit lacking in the architecture of Shinnecock Hills?  To me a great course will ALWAYS give you viable and interesting options, no matter what the "maintenance meld" might be?  Compare SH2004 with  The Old Course 2000, for example.

Is it maybe that Shinny is the GCA aficionado's version of a "dumb blonde?"

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

The only serious way to play the 10th was to hit for the botton of the hill and take your opportunity with a lesser yardage than with laying back and trying to hit the demanding green with even more club.

[Dan Kelly]

Since the 10th has reared its ... head again, I'm going to repost a question that never got answered the first time:

Does anyone ever play that 2nd shot with a putter?

[Gary_Nelson]

Were runup shots a legitimate option on this course?  Was it possible to stop a ball on these greens with this type of shot?   Balls ran thru the green when hit with a sand wedge.  How would the results change when hitting with a 7 iron?

[ForkaB]

Dan

60-70 yards straight uphill is pretty damn difficult for even the greatest of putters.  Wasn't it Crenshaw who had the ball come back to his feet more than once on that hole in an earlier Open?

[Ken Fry]

Jaka,

When you come back from your trip, the only thing for sure you'll see here is who's masochistic and WANTS to see players shoot a million (like yourself) and those that think a venue such as Shinnecock can identify the best player in the field on it's own merits.  If the Sunday set-up is your ideal picture of conditions, may the US Open go the way another British Open at Royal St. George's would go:  hit the ball, hope it ends up in a decent lie whether it's fairway or not......  Now that's good "strategy."

[Dan Kelly]

Wasn't it Crenshaw who had the ball come back to his feet more than once on that hole in an earlier Open?

It was -- but he wasn't using a putter!

I was just curious, because I know that if *I* were standing at the bottom of that hill knowing that I'd miss the green if my pitch shot were less than *perfect*, and seeing 60 or 70 yards of perfect turf ahead of me, I'd at least consider pulling out the putter. Obviously I haven't played the hole and don't know how steep that hill is; I might see the steepness and realize that the putter would be a ridiculous play. But I still wonder if any non-professionals (for whom the course was designed, was it not?) ever use a putter up that hill.

[Mike Hendren]

Dan,

Haven't been there or done that but I'm guessing it would take a full shoulder turn to putt the ball up that hill from 75 yards out.

Mike

[JakaB]

KFry,

The winner or winners didn't shoot a million....what I have found is that when a course is particularly unusually difficult it becomes much harder to get it home once you feel your round is in the toilet.   It is not a bad set up if it reveals a lack of character amongsts the losers....Ernie and Correy and Tom Kite lost interest.....that was their fault not that of Tom Meeks.

I think everyone would agree that if the same golfers played again Monday under the same conditions the scores would be much better.....These golfers just were not prepared for the conditions.....the losers just needed time to either figure it out or get their heads screwed on straight.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan;

As someone who has taken a putter from 65-70 yards out at Pacific Dunes (my chipping is abysmal), I can tell you that I'd never think of doing it on 10 at Shinny...it's just too steep and abrupt up to that green.

[Lou_Duran]

Rihc,

You may be onto something.  All those uphill approaches; some which run away wildly into trash.  Beautiful place.  Exacting.  But, even with a better maintenance meld, it must be a bear for the members.  Is a "Top 5" course deserving of its standing if it can only be played by the expert?  I believe that Ray Floyd has the overall course record with a 64.

Shivas,

For the most part, Retief hit the ball somewhere in the direction he was aiming.  I am unaware of any double cross, with the exception on the shot in the rough (on 13, I think), which he followed with a fantastic flop shot to save par.

As Johnny Miller pointed out, the primary rough was not all that punishing.  At least in those holes where Goosen missed by a wider margin, he had chances to put the ball back in play where par was still possible.

Matt,

I didn't mean to suggest that Goosen's putts were "easy", only that they were always in the realm of possibility.  For the most part, they seemed to be relatively flat or uphill, with not a tremendous amount of break.

As you and Adam pointed out, one could see in Phil's face that he didn't like his sand shot on 17.  I too had the feeling that he would miss the first one, though I was surprised that he seemed to pull the second.  With a need to birdie 18, I was also puzzled as to why he laid it back so far on his drive.  Goosen did not hesitate to rip the driver to get within 9-iron length (I think).

All in all, I thought that it was a tremendous performance by the top several finishers, and a very entertaining US Open.  With the proper maintenance meld, it could have been much better.

[Ken Fry]

Jaka,

I agree with you that the beauty of the Majors is the "choke" factor.  Who can hold it together through the adversities that come along under tough conditions and under an immense amount of pressure?  Goosen played (i.e. putted) incredibly to win, but the "bounce" factor was too great.  Too many times on Sunday the luck of the bounce determined the outcome, not how the players strategized their way around the course.  Firm and fast is the way to go, especially in a tournament like the Open and at a place like Shinnecock.   Nothing will fraw the nerves of a player like fast conditions, but the USGA did lose control of the course and ultimately luck played too great a part in determining the winner (and the losers).

[Mike Hendren]

Good on ya, Mike Cirba - wrapping that putter from 70 yards out.  

My all time favorite shot was from about that distance out on the 16th at The Old Course.  After a winded aided drive right of the Principals Nose, I rolled the putter up through the front to three feet.  Easy two putt from there for par

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger Bernhardt,

They did a study years ago about the correlation between distance, rough/fairways and GIR.

The results showed that a player was far better off in the rough but 20-30 yards closer to the green.

Magnify that by 70-80 yards closer to the green and the answer becomes obvious.

Remember too, that LOB wedges have vastly improved near green approaches, and that the golf ball has helped as well.

In addition, I don't know about you, but I'm hitting the ball straighter today, when I'm far less athletic, have lousy vision and poorer hand-eye co-ordination.

So, the choice seems obvious, BOMB AWAY.

Rich Goodale,

When Goosen hits it from 127 yards on # 8 into the short right greenside bunker that's not the golf course's fault, and when he dumps a 9-iron into the short right greenside bunker at # 14 that's not the golf course's fault.

And, I'd love to be 50-70 yards from the green on # 9, # 18 and # 10 and take my chances on a bump and run.

Shinnecock merely played for the Pros like NGLA usually plays for the amateurs when the golf course is super fast and firm for its invitational.   They just weren't accustomed to, or prepared for those conditions.

Fast and firm & course set up weren't the problems,
It's the BALL and the EQUIPMENT that have rendered the architecture and the intended play of the golf course obsolete.

[JohnV]

Sam Snead once said, "I'd rather have a 9-iron out of the rough than a 5-iron out of the fairway".

Another quote of his that is relevant to last weekend:
"The greens were so fast, I had to hold the putter over the ball and hit it with the shadow."

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