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Carlyle Rood

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Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« on: June 19, 2004, 09:08:48 PM »
Shinnecock may surpass the Masters and British Open spectators as the most knowledgable fans in golf.  ;)  Overheard this week at the U.S. Open:

"Ruh-TEEF GOOS-uhn?  Who is dis guy?  Ruh-teefs don't win our Open, I know dat!"  (In fairness, this was overheard Monday.)

"Dis is number seven--the Red Dan.  I guess Dan was the Shinnecock chief."

"Tiger can hit duh ball a long wayz, but dis guyz got no short game."  (After watching Tiger take three pitches to hold the 10th green on Saturday.)

"See.  Dats why this guy can't win a major.  No damage control."  (After watching Mickelson make double-bogey on the 7th on Sunday.)


Gib_Papazian

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2004, 09:11:47 PM »
The only problem with your theory is experience that the most golf-erudite players in golf (as a group) are the club players inthe MET Golf Association.

Tough to admit coming from a left-coast guy.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2004, 11:15:55 PM »
Gib, Your right, but they also have some of the most clueless. Lets not forget that the Golf Digest offices are in Conneticutt.  A lot of them are members of the MET, including Jimmy Roberts.

Carlyle,
This is some really good dialog you got here. I would suppose I could hear the same dialog if I turned on one of the sports talk shows based in NYC! "Pee-ottza's a pussy! Did you see him back off of when Rajah beaned him!"

APBernstein

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2004, 11:35:22 PM »
When in New York, tact is not always the most noticeable trait.  But I will say this: as far as golf crowds go, these fans make things fun, at least for the viewer.  The electricity on the course, first experienced at Bethpage and the Mickelson roars/chants, is back again.  If there is a charge by anyway on Sunday, whether it is from Els or Mickelson, these galleries are behind them, and that makes this event a better one.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2004, 12:36:07 AM »
Too bad that the USGA won't follow (my guess) the Masters' cue from this past April and set some accessible pin positions to instill a little positive excitment on Sunday.  Instead, it just might be another reverse afternoon finish, trying not to give it away to the guy from earlier in the day who posted a low round in more benign conditions (as Clark did today).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 12:36:24 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2004, 06:36:25 AM »
Scott Burroughs,

When the players are hitting Sand Wedges to greens that they previously hit 5-rions into at the previous Open,
I wouldn't worry about hole locations.

This isn't the Masters, it's the US OPEN.

And, the US OPEN has had a history of having the field back up on sunday, especially on the final nine holes.

I'm not in to birdie and eagle fests for the sake of entertainment when trying to establish the National Champion.

You must be a fan of desert golf  ;D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2004, 06:38:01 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2004, 09:45:15 AM »
As I was walking up #8 last Monday I heard this guy walking next to me tell the lady he was walking with that area out there where Singh, Scott, Clarke and Furyk were was called the "fairway" and all of them were going to be shooting their balls at the thing up there called the "green".

Honest to God! I felt like saying something clever but decided to just hold my tongue!

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2004, 01:26:48 PM »
Below is an exceprt from an article on The Irish Independent Website, Unison.ie. The majority of the article was about Goosen's caddie that hails from Dublin.

Beginning of excerpt:
"In every other respect, however, they discovered they were on the same wavelength.

Goosen and Byrne certainly needed ice in the veins as they walked a gauntlet of hostile fans on a Shinnecock course that would have tried the patience of a saint.

While Phil Mickelson is a thorough gentleman, more than a few among the tens of thousands of New Yorkers noisily urging him on last Sunday, were patently unfamiliar with the etiquette of golf.

It's a measure of the general disappointment at their hero's two-stroke defeat that the huge grandstand at the 18th green was already empty when Goosen was presented with the US Open trophy for the second time in three years.

"Obviously the fans were with him," Byrne confirmed. "There was some pretty bad etiquette, you might say, from the crowd. Appalling.

"On Saturday I heard some guy yell out 'it's yours to lose, Goose'. Stuff like that," said the man from Howth, adding that fans were wasting their breath if they thought they might put the South African off his stride.

"He doesn't hear it," continued Byrne, a member of Royal Dublin. "He's not emotional. He doesn't react to stuff. It doesn't faze him at all.

"I think Ernie (Els) reacted on the 14th hole to some guy, though I don't know what he said to him. Yet that's what you expect over here and you face it with resignation. What can you do. They don't like to be beaten."

Like his caddie, Goosen dismissed the effect of the roaring galleries. "In a way, I think it was probably a bit easier playing with Ernie in the final round and not with Phil. I think if I had played with him, there'd have been a lot more going on around us.

"I was really doing my hardest to stay focussed and not get carried away with what's going on in front of me and just play one shot at a time," explained the South African, whose concentration was seen to greatest effect on Shinnecock's marbelled greens.

The United States Golf Association have quite rightly been pilloried by many of the game's leading players for the way in which they allowed this fine links to dry up at the weekend, ..."

End of excerpt.

I attended on Thursday and Friday and the crowds were more subdued than I expected. However my expections were pretty low after Bethpage. After attending both Augusta and Shinnecock this year, the high level of play exhibited by international players was not recognized by the patrons at either venue. I really think that the majority of people in the United States consider it somehow unpatriotic to cheer for an excellent performance regardless of where the contestant is from. Many feel that it is even necessary to try to actively cheer against international players and somehow insert their behaviors into the outcome.

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2004, 01:49:18 PM »
I attended both Sundays of the Masters and the U.S. Open.  The NY fans were unpleasant to Goosen; but, it was far from out of hand.  It was disappointing; but, it was not disastrous.

At Augusta, "patrons" would applaud well-played shots from foreign players, and there was some genuine enthusiasm for Ernie Els there.  Well-played shots by foreign players at the U.S. Open did not receive much applause.

That being said, I think the climate would have been different at Shinnecock if Els and Mickelson were battling down the stretch instead of Goosen and Mickelson.

I really admire Goosen's game and his concentration.  I admire the way he conducts himself as a gentleman at all times.  But, he's not very charismatic.  He takes a while to warm up to.  Fans will begin to appreciate him.  He'll garner more applause and respect over time.  Look for fans to begin pulling for him more aggressively soon.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2004, 01:50:29 PM »
Bill,

Be very careful...they don't like things like this being said on here... ;)

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2004, 01:53:34 PM »
I attended both Sundays of the Masters and the U.S. Open.  The NY fans were unpleasant to Goosen; but, it was far from out of hand.  It was disappointing; but, it was not disastrous.


Carlyle,

Read what you just wrote there and tell me it is not disastrous.

Makes me wonder sometimes.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

CHrisB

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2004, 02:09:55 PM »
Phil's missed putt on #18 Saturday might have been just as big of a miss as the ones on #17 Sunday. If he makes Saturday, he gets into the final group with Goosen, instead of in the 2nd-to-last group with Funk, allowing Goosen to play with his countryman and friend, Els.

But I'm glad it happened that way. From the moment it became apparent that this would be Goosen vs. Mickelson, I was hoping that the fans would not resort to doing whatever they could to help Phil along to the win and Goosen to the loss. It could have gotten very ugly.

Let's not forget, though, that this very thing has happened even at Augusta National--specifically 1991, when Woosnam had to overcome quite a bit of abuse to beat the gallery favorite Tom Watson.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2004, 02:10:59 PM »
I agree, Brian, it is pretty sad.

Complaints about Retief's personality remind of all the bozos who criticised Sampras not displaying more "personality" during his years at the top.

I'll take quiet class any day of the week.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2004, 02:18:47 PM »
Is Goosen that much different from Hogan?

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2004, 02:21:37 PM »
I attended both Sundays of the Masters and the U.S. Open.  The NY fans were unpleasant to Goosen; but, it was far from out of hand.  It was disappointing; but, it was not disastrous.


Carlyle,

Read what you just wrote there and tell me it is not disastrous.

Makes me wonder sometimes.

Brian

Disastrous would include loud, direct confrontations with Goosen.  I heard some sideways comments made to Goosen; but, they weren't especially confrontational.  For example, chanting "U-S-A."  The comments were obnoxious, certainly, but definitely not threatening or mean-spirited.  They were just too exuberant, so I was disappointed.

I'm more inclined to agree with Goosen's comments after the tournament.  He acknowledged that Mickelson was an immensely popular player in the U.S. and the fans' enthusiasm for him was understandable.  He also recognized that the fans were likely more disappointed that Mickelson didn't win, than they were disappointed that he did win.

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2004, 02:23:29 PM »
Is Goosen that much different from Hogan?

Goosen certainly conducts himself with the same modesty and professionalism that Hogan did.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2004, 02:41:11 PM »
Carlyle,

Then what did you mean by the NY fans were unpleasant to Goosen?  I agree with you about the backing of Phil but I heard a few things on the tv that just...well...I am fed up of arguing about fans in the US.

Whatever..

Go see The Open, you get the odd idiot in Britain but nothing like what you heard on the tv.  And they know their bloody golf as well.  The chip Goosen had from the hay was out of this world and I heard about two claps...

What is disastrous, is that you don't recognise it as disastrous.

Not one bad word should ever, ever, ever, be uttered at a golf tournament, ever...thats it, there are no god damn excuses.  If it happens the idiot should be escorted away and banned for life.

I am embarassed about being English when I see the drunken idiots in Portugal and always excuse themselves that they were picked on or beaten up or it wasn't them...bollocks.  I had a season ticket for many years at Liverpool in the good old days and never got in a fight ever.  I have been to loads of England games and never got in a fight...there just is no excuse.  

Anytime it happens it is a disaster and when people like yourself defend it....well, you are an intelligent man...would you want your son or daughter to act like some fans do?

'It was far from out of hand' it is out of hand no matter what you think, it is a golf tournament and the only people that can change that sort of attitude is people of mine and your generation that teach our kids not only disipline but also respect for other people, that is all.  Our genereation will be judged by our kids.

Brian
« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 02:43:55 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

A_Clay_Man

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2004, 03:12:44 PM »

When goosen was putting on 18, you could hear, "miss it noonan".

I'd be curious to know if this issue is ever discussed at the high levels of golf?  Was their a confrence, at 20/20, on ettiqutte peddeling? 8)

Bad Apples, no doubt.


Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2004, 03:31:32 PM »
Then what did you mean by the NY fans were unpleasant to Goosen?  I agree with you about the backing of Phil but I heard a few things on the tv that just...well...I am fed up of arguing about fans in the US.

I thought the "U-S-A" chants were unpleasant and were in poor taste.

Quote
Go see The Open, you get the odd idiot in Britain but nothing like what you heard on the tv.  And they know their bloody golf as well.


British fans certainly know how to tend a pin.


This interpretation of the "19th Hole" is inconsistent with our interpretation in the U.S.

Quote
What is disastrous, is that you don't recognise it as disastrous.

I think we're just having an argument about semantics.  I deplored the behavior.  However, "disastrous" obviously has a different connotation to me than you.  (And so does "bloody golf.")  If the behavior of the NY fans had affected the outcome, then it would have been disastrous.  Because it did not, I merely consider it obnoxious, annoying, and irritating.


Quote
Anytime it happens it is a disaster and when people like yourself defend it....well, you are an intelligent man...would you want your son or daughter to act like some fans do?

I haven't defended the behavior of the fans.

I wasn't suggesting that their behavior was justified because Goosen is uncharismatic, either.  I just acknowledged that Ernie Els is more popular than Retief Goosen.  Previous posts implied that the NY (and Augusta) fans were anti-foreign players.  That's untrue.  A number of foreign players are immensely popular in the U.S.  Retief Goosen is not.

I also made the observation that fans will ultimately warm up to Goosen and that he should evolve into one of the more popular foreign players in the U.S.

Brian Phillips

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Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2004, 03:37:36 PM »
Fair enough Carlyle, but you said that it was 'far from out of hand' not me.  For me it is out of as soon as anyone does anything like that at a golf tournament.

I don't see how you can compare the odd streaker with the what happened at the weekend.  You probably put it up for fun or you are missing the point.

I am not perfect, I have a really bad habit of swearing, it comes from two things, five years in the Army and a poor vocabulary but I just don't understand the mentality of fans sometimes.

We agree Carlyle shall we leave it at that.

Brian

« Last Edit: June 22, 2004, 03:42:10 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2004, 04:13:30 PM »
Brian Phillips,

I'm with you.

Fans are becoming more vocal, more boorish at each and every tournament.

The fans attending the gentleman's game are turning out to be the same element that inhabited the Pit at the Globe Theatre.

Listening to fan after fan yelling LOUD, absurd comments after every shot is becoming tiresome, and they should be removed.

Yelling "miss it Noonan" is irresponsible and unacceptable

In a few years the tomato concession will be the big money maker for the sponsors.

If the sponsors don't get rid of this element, sooner or later, fans will try to influence the outcome by becoming even more rambunctious, to the point of active participation, and that would be disastrous.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2004, 04:36:54 PM »
Brian,

You are completely right in that it if we let a little bit of bad behavior go and say well it's okay we have a few bad apples we are being irresponsible. It's either okay for every to misbehave and at that point it becomes the norm or it's not okay for anybody.

I can understand spectators cheering for their favorite players. What I can't understand are those spectators that don't enthusiastically support great golf regardless of who hit the shot and their country of orgin. A great shot hit by Lawrie, Casey, or Choi should receive the same level of enthusiatic response as if it was hit by Tiger or Mickelson. The golf should be cheered first and the player second. Even worse are those spectators that try to impact the outcome with their actions.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2004, 04:42:21 PM »
Just curious - can anybody compare the fans on Long Island, NY to the PGA fans at Oak Hill in Rochester, NY last year?

I'm willing to bet the Oak Hill fans were more 'midwestern' in their attitudes.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2004, 04:47:44 PM »
I tend to agree with the general increase in poor behavier by fans at golf events. The US Open and to a certain extent the Ryder Cup seem to bring out the worst. I was really upset by the boorish behavier at Bethpage. This was not as bad but not anything to get excited about trends changing. If one checks the Open rotation, expect Pinehurst to be the best behaved fans at an Open for the next decade or so.

George Pazin

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Re:Shinnecock: Most Knowledgable Fans in Golf
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2004, 04:59:12 PM »
I think Tiger just insulted all of Pittsburgh! :)

If I put on any sporting event, I would have an etiquette contract on sorts printed on all tickets & eject anyone who didn't comply.

Much like some feel plunking down their $$ entitles them to play at any speed they wish, some feel that plunking down $$ on tickets entitles them to be obnoxious to whomever they choose.

In both cases, I think the other players/spectators would more than appreciate it if management was a little tougher. The net benefit would be a definite plus.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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