[Dan King]

Bobby Weed writes about five ideas that architects and course operators can do to speed up play in a Travel Golf column.

Click here for Bobby Weed's column

I disagree with some of it. I think the real culprit is uncaring golfers who only think of their own game and have no awareness of other golfers on the course. It's a shame, golfers used to be some of the more considerate athletes, but no more. Nobody is willing to change the pace if there is the slightest chance it could cost them a shot.

I'm curious about the following comment by Weed. Common sense says this is B.S.

"Studies have shown that tee times spaced 10-12 minutes, separate groups more effectively. The longer interval actually allows more golfers onto the course each day."

It could possibly be true if money was collected as you come off the 18th hole, but all courses I've been to collect money before you tee off.

Dan King

Even when golf cars are free to wander and destroy turfgrass, they contribute to slow play because they contribute to a mentality that has nothing to do with playing golf.
 --Brad Klein

[Carlyle Rood]

Bobby Weed writes about five ideas that architects and course operators can do to speed up play in a Travel Golf column.
I disagree with some of it. I think the real culprit is uncaring golfers who only think of their own game and have no awareness of other golfers on the course.

I actually agree with everything he says, particularly with regards to the spacing between greens and the following tee.

I'll add another strategy for speeding up play: Wager less money!    The greater the stakes are, the greater the anxiety, and thus the greater deliberateness.

And here's another controversial way to speed up play: Permit the long- and belly-putters.  I don't think there's any place for these putters on the tour; but, I've watched friends struggling with the yips, standing over the ball for an eternity.  They simply CAN'T take the putter back.  I watched a buddy stand over a twenty-inch birdie putt for almost two minutes, before he finally reached down, picked up the ball, and CONCEDED the hole!

[Matt Kardash]

What I really hate is when you are waiting in the fairway and you watch the guys in front of you on the green and they are taking like a minute to read the green. They check the putt from the back, the side, the otherside. Amateurs have no reason to check the putt from the otherside of the hole. When four guys in a group do this it is becomes deadly slow, and trully annoying when you are watching from behind.

I think that is my ultimate pet peeve. I take at most 10 seconds to read a putt, and I usually do it while my partners are playing.

[Casey Wade]

Matt, you hit the nail on the head!  
Quote:
and I usually do it while my partners are playing.

Playing ready golf, even if you do shoot 100 in the foursome will decrease slow play and EVERYONE is happy.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dan- It is a shame. How does one teach decency and awareness? Ans: You can't. You can only lead by example. And, The only way that you get more golfers on the course with 10-12 min. tee time intervals, is by making sure each one of them, is considerate and aware.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I'm curious about the following comment by Weed. Common sense says this is B.S.

"Studies have shown that tee times spaced 10-12 minutes, separate groups more effectively. The longer interval actually allows more golfers onto the course each day."

It could possibly be true if money was collected as you come off the 18th hole, but all courses I've been to collect money before you tee off.

Dan, sometimes the answer to these "throughput" questions is counter-intuitive.  At least that was my experience in school when studying production or assembly line management.

Sending people to the first tee without a prescribed interval will in fact get more people onto the course in the early part of the day.  But eventually, play will back up and groups will have to wait to tee off on #1.  The number of people that can be on the course at any one time is limited, and so there is a point where throughput is maximized.

Spacing starting times will possibly speed up the play of individuall groups and allow groups to tee off #1 later into the day.  If a round takes 5 hours and it is dark at 7 pm, then groups can't go off past 2 pm.  Of course if rounds are faster, groups can go off later.

This analysis can likely be done with some production planning template.  

Many people who approach the SF Bay Bridge toll booths in the morning wonder why traffic is metered onto the bridge.  They are not aware of the fact that more traffic can move across the bridge in a prescribed time period if cars are allowed onto the bridge in intervals, than if all cars could proceed unrestricted.

I think the analysis would be similar for golf courses...get more people through the course during daylight hours...the way to do it is to "meter" golfers onto the course.

[Mike Hendren]

Dan- It is a shame. How does one teach decency and awareness? Ans: You can't. You can only lead by example.

Bingo.  End of slow play discussions everywhere.

Mike

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan,
I'm in agreement with most of your suspicions, and I get a good chuckle when Carlyle suggests the belly putter as something that can speed-up play. Maybe in Atlanta, but in every state I have played, I find slow play to be the following:

Cart based play--When you have two people riding in one cart, people get complacent. They ride from shot to shot instead of parking in between and both getting out and walking to their shots.

The Distance Thing--While I realize the importance of knowledge of distance to the hole for all to acheive a low score, I myself, like Weed think too much effort is spent on looking for sprinkler heads, ground based monuments and punching GPS buttons, trying to get the advertisement for the snack bar or the time pace and goal of round off of the screen. Mind you that to get these accurate assessments withthe cart exactly to the point of the ball, which further backs up my first point.  Personally, I think the distance thing is over-rated. Get-up, rely on your own eyes and perception without outside influence to hit the "F-ing" shot and then go about your business. I'll lay 10-1 that a person will play better by doing it that way, and if he doesn't play better, he'll will play faster.

Selfishness and Ersatz Ego--Practice swings, focusing on shots, clearing the mind, thinking of what Heidi Klum might think of you if you make this shot--all while the people you are playing with and the people behind you have to suffer with your self-centeredness--that the world revolves around you and your golf swing and the time it takes you to do it.  From a fellow playing-persepctive, its enough to stick hot needles in my eyes.  GEt up there and hit the F-ing shot today please!

Narrow fairways and containment--This is the design end of the post. In my ramblings over the years of "Good containment/Bad containment" this is the perfect example of how containment mounding slows play on a golf course. Once its over that continament mounding, the ball is going to hit off of the backside of it, thus propelling it even further to the point that looking for golf balls takes more time. We are all going to hit shots wide off the target, and many of us will it more wide then straight. So off we trot to go look for the ball, and in an effort to promote proper ettiquite, are playing partners also help, thus further slowing down the game because the "F-ing" containment mounding served as a kick point to further kick the ball into areas which you need a machete or sherpa guide to explore.

There are many more things I can go into detail regarding slow play, but will forgo it in the interest of making timely and readable posts.

[Carlyle Rood]

Dan,
I'm in agreement with most of your suspicions, and I get a good chuckle when Carlyle suggests the belly putter as something that can speed-up play.

BOTH suggestions were intended to make you chuckle.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I bet! I was belly laughing--big belly laughing here in SoCal. I think it registered a 5.6 on the Rictor Scale1

[Dan King]

Carlyle Road writes:
I watched a buddy stand over a twenty-inch birdie putt for almost two minutes, before he finally reached down, picked up the ball, and CONCEDED the hole!

If it takes two minutes to pull back a putter, quit. Ot at least don't putt.

Two minutes to putt, times two putts each green, time 18 holes, times four golfers means 288 minutes, almost 5 hours, just for putting. Anybody who wants to take two minutes to putt should either quit the game, play at night, or buy their own golf course. They should not be sharing a golf course with other people.

Adam Clayman writes:
Dan- It is a shame. How does one teach decency and awareness? Ans: You can't. You can only lead by example.

The battle is lost. Golfers, as a group, are uncaring assholes with no regard for anyone but themselves. They paid their money and they aren't going to give up a single shot. I used to think of golfers as a special breed of athletes. I was delusional.

Kevin_Reilly writes:
Dan, sometimes the answer to these "throughput" questions is counter-intuitive.  At least that was my experience in school when studying production or assembly line management.

As long as you can maintain eight minute intervals on the first tee, then you will get more money with eight minute intervals than 12. To get the most money out of a course you have to make sure your backup happens later in the round, not on the first hole.

The number of people that can be on the course at any one time is limited, and so there is a point where throughput is maximized.

Limited by what? Ever been to Santa Teresa? San Jose Muni?

I've constantly heard about this often quoted study, but never seen any details on it. I'd love to see how the study was done.

There is really only one solution to solving slow play.

Speed up

Nothing is going to speed up inconsiderate golfers except kicking them off the course. Course operators really want to do something about slow play that is what they are going to have to do. No chance this would happen, but until it does, Weed's suggestions are just window dressing.

Golfers should always be aware of their place on the course. If you are behind, pick up and move on. I, stuck behind your inconsiderate ass (or even worse, in your group) could care less how much you are playing for or that you might be shooting your career round.

I've played with plenty of golfers who like to think of themselves as traditionalists, who consider themselves the embodiment of Bobby Jones and other classic golfers of our past. Yet, they think it is physically impossible for them to play at a different speed. They could care less if two holes are open ahead of them, Jack Nickaus told them to envision their shot and they are going to stand there waiting until the vision comes. Screw everyone else on the course.

Somehow we have to make golfers more aware of other golfers than their goddamn score. First step might be to take out the silly machines for recording your score in every pro shop. Getting away from the incredibly silly medal play could easily knock an hour off rounds.

Somehow, with rough, no carts, blind shots, poorer maintenance, etc... golfers used to be able to easily complete a round in under 3 hours. Now, people consider a 4½ hour round fast. Approx. 100 percent of the time it is because golfers as a group are about as inconsiderate a group as exists.

Dan King

Something very drastic ought to have been done years and years ago. Golf courses are becoming far to long. Twenty years ago we played three rounds of golf a day and considered we had taken an interminably long time if we took more than two hours to play a round. Today it's not infrequently takes over three hours.
 --Alister MacKenzie

[Kevin_Reilly]

Dan, would you say that the answer to gridlock on the Bay Bridge in the morning rush hour is for everyone to drive faster across the bridge?  Maybe that would work theoretically if everyone drove a precise (high)rate of speed, but it isn't something that Caltrans would choose to do.  Accidents happen, stalls happen, some people can't drive that fast for whatever reason.  So they meter traffic onto the bridge  to maximize the number of cars that cross between a finite period of time.  

The exercise is the same for golf courses...maximize the number of players through the course in a finite period of time (daylight hours).  And know that every group that gets on the course will not be able to play like jackrabbits or at the same rate of speed.  Balls get lost, people might have a bad hole, some are riding/some are walking.  Some guys might even be taking pictures.  

As to your question as to a limit on the amount of people on the course at any one time, just draw a map of the course and plot how many people can be on the greens and in each fairway.  Then make assumptions about how many people you want to stack up on each tee.  You can play with this all you want, and say that there are 3 groups on every tee or something like that, but eventually you will reach full capacity.  At that point the fairways are full, the greens are full and you cannot send any more people to the first tee any more.  You can send them there, but there is no where for them to go.  At that point, the course is at full capacity.

[Dan King]

Kevin_Reilly writes:
Dan, would you say that the answer to gridlock on the Bay Bridge in the morning rush hour is for everyone to drive faster across the bridge?

With the bridge at capacity during rush hour they have to concern themselves with how many people get across the bridge. Would meters make any sense on the bridge if it was a single lane?

Since golf is single lane then it matters very little how far apart are the tee times. If some group wants to take five hours to play a round of golf, the only amount of time the next group can make up is the few minutes of slack from the tee time. With 12 minute tee times the group behind the five hour group can play a round in about 4 hours and 56 minutes.

A better example is Disneyland. They can keep on shoveling people through the turnstiles, because they don't reach anything near capacity. There is always room in Disneyland for one more person regardless how many people exit the park. The experience degenerates the fuller it gets. But as long as they keep getting people willing to pay they can keep shoving them in. At some point, one would think you need to make the experience enjoyable for the customer, but many courses (and amusement parks) never get to the point.

The other problem with golf is it is like a single lane bridge. You are stuck at the speed of the slowest moving car. Make all kinds of changes to move that car along, but you aren't going to speed up flow until you refuse to let that car on our force it to move faster. It doesn't matter if you put in meter lights if some drivers think it should take five hours to cross the bridge.

A good example is San Jose Muni. They send groups off the first tee every eight minutes. There is no problem with doing that on the first hole. People tee off on the first hole, and it plays reasonably fast. They even have marshals on the first hole to make sure that hole plays fast. The second hole, there can be seven or eight groups waiting to tee off. The rest of the round there can be multiple groups on every tee, and the round will take five or six hours to complete.

My concern with what Weed suggests is this idea that architects have to vanilla golf courses to compensate for inconsiderate golfers. The right answer is to refuse to let the inconsiderate play. Let all the slow players go play San Jose Muni or minor golf courses and leave better courses for players who have consideration for others. This way, golfers will be forced to be considerate (since this voluntary consideration has been a miserable failure) and they will have to understand sometimes they have to trade time for score.

And know that every group that gets on the course will not be able to play like jackrabbits or at the same rate of speed.  Balls get lost, people might have a bad hole, some are riding/some are walking.  Some guys might even be taking pictures.

The one and only answer is to kick them off the course. If they can't keep up they don't belong. Courses are coddling slow players because the rest of us don't complain. We've learn to accept that a five hour round is reasonable. And in a few years we will accept the six hour round, all because we are meek and willing to take it.

You lose a ball, or have a bad hole, concede and move on. You don't know how to use a cart, get off the course. You want to take pictures, play one hole, take pictures on the next.

If forced to, golfers will pick up and move on. If left to their own devices, there is no chance.

As to your question as to a limit on the amount of people on the course at any one time, just draw a map of the course and plot how many people can be on the greens and in each fairway.

Draw a picture of Disneyland. Put someone on every seat on every ride, put a few in line, a few buying food, some in the johns -- Disneyland would strongly disagree that is capacity.

Dan King

If four players are ranged in line across a wide fairway there in no earthly reason why each of them should not be calculating the shot, selecting a club and taking up a stance more or less simultaneously. The setting up of a golf shot can be as ponderous as the loading of a Roman siege catapult, with interminable adjustments to range and aim before finally the carcass of a dead horse is hoisted into the middle launcher. Lobbing four dead horses over the parapet takes an age, which is how it works in golf if three crews of loaders and launchers sit down and watch while the fourth goes into action.
  --Peter Dobereiner

[Kevin_Reilly]

With the bridge at capacity during rush hour they have to concern themselves with how many people get across the bridge.

How is that different than a golf course?

Would meters make any sense on the bridge if it was a single lane?

Well, given that 18-ish lanes converge into 6 at the toll plaza, then it would seem to be even more extreme than a single lane bridge.

Since golf is single lane then it matters very little how far apart are the tee times.

I disagree.

If some group wants to take five hours to play a round of golf

I haven't fired or disarmed all the course rangers.

A better example is Disneyland. They can keep on shoveling people through the turnstiles, because they don't reach anything near capacity.

Then how do you define "capacity"?"

There is always room in Disneyland for one more person regardless how many people exit the park.

We aren't talking about the number of angels on the head of a pin.

The other problem with golf is it is like a single lane bridge. You are stuck at the speed of the slowest moving car. Make all kinds of changes to move that car along, but you aren't going to speed up flow until you refuse to let that car on our force it to move faster. It doesn't matter if you put in meter lights if some drivers think it should take five hours to cross the bridge.

An adequate gap between starting times provides some cushion for inevitable delays.  Just like there will be one otherwise well-maintained car that has a belt break, there will be one otherwise fast moving group that might have a bad hole...losing balls or something.  It happens.  And golf course managers have to assume it will happen.

A good example is San Jose Muni. They send groups off the first tee every eight minutes. There is no problem with doing that on the first hole. People tee off on the first hole, and it plays reasonably fast. They even have marshals on the first hole to make sure that hole plays fast. The second hole, there can be seven or eight groups waiting to tee off. The rest of the round there can be multiple groups on every tee, and the round will take five or six hours to complete.

This course sounds like it proves my point.  Eight minute gaps aren't enough.  

The one and only answer is to kick them off the course. If they can't keep up they don't belong. Courses are coddling slow players because the rest of us don't complain. We've learn to accept that a five hour round is reasonable. And in a few years we will accept the six hour round, all because we are meek and willing to take it.

Just as Caltrans is there to tow the inevitable stall off the bridge, marshalls/rangers need to monitor play.  Staggering tee times isn't a single solution.  You need to monitor play as well.  But sending people off every 8 minutes (or, more likely, sending them to the tee "in the hole" so they tee off as soon as the group ahead is out of range) is a recipe for slow play.  You can't have marshalls on all 18 holes....if groups aren't staggered then play will be slow.

Draw a picture of Disneyland. Put someone on every seat on every ride, put a few in line, a few buying food, some in the johns -- Disneyland would strongly disagree that is capacity.

OK, if you want me to derive capacity....

4 par 5s:
4 on green x 4 = 16
8 in fairway x 4 = 32
4 on tee x 4 = 16

4 par 3's:
4 on green x 4 = 16
4 on tee x 4 = 16

10 par 4's:
4 on green x 10 = 40
4 on tee x 10 = 40

Total = 176

That is capacity.

[Rick Shefchik]

Carlyle -- I have heard many yips stories, and witnessed a few (I've been going through a spate of rough putting experiences myself lately) but I have NEVER heard or seen anything as pathetic as the guy you described who conceded the hole because he couldn't pull the trigger on the 20-inch birdie putt.

I'm a happy man tonight. I realize I've got a long, long way to go before I reach those depths.

[Dan King]

Kevin_Reilly writes:
How is that different than a golf course?

A bridge has an absolute capacity. Another person can't get on the bridge until someone gets off. A golf course, similar to an amusement park, can always fit another person or group. Each additional person might make it unpleasant to the rest of the people playing, but both Walt Disney and your local pro shop make more money the more people through the turnstile or first tee. The key is keeping the bottleneck away from the turnstile or the first tee.

I haven't fired or disarmed all the course rangers.

Golf courses have disarmed them.

Then how do you define "capacity"?"

It doesn't matter how I define capacity. I don't believe Disneyland or San Jose Muni bother defining capacity. I've been to both when there are far more people than I'd define capacity, and they keep squeezing in more. I've sworn I'd never go back to either. But I'm in a minority. They still find plenty of people willing to put up with the crowds.

An adequate gap between starting times provides some cushion for inevitable delays.  Just like there will be one otherwise well-maintained car that has a belt break, there will be one otherwise fast moving group that might have a bad hole...losing balls or something.  It happens.  And golf course managers have to assume it will happen.

That would work if you had a golf course with considerate golfers on it. Considerate golfers are now a rarity. Most golfers only care about their own game. So a group that decides they are comfortable playing a five hour round is going to play at that pace. Make it 40 minute tee times, and eventually the fast group is still going to run into the inconsiderate slow group.

I used to play Pebble Beach at twilight. We would tee off four hours before sunset, two hours after the last full-fare group. We'd rip around the course, often playing the front nine in an hour or so. Then we'd hit the photo-taking tourists, who teed off two hours before us. There was a two hour gap in the tee time between the group ahead of us, and we still couldn't finish before dark. We'd play the front nine in an hour and the back nine in more than three. We essentially had two hour tee times, and were still slowed by slow golfers.

This course sounds like it proves my point.  Eight minute gaps aren't enough.

Not for the enjoyment of the golfers, but they are for the cash register. If you can consistently tee people off on the first tee in eight minute gaps, 12 minute gaps or two hour gaps, which will bring in more money?

if groups aren't staggered then play will be slow.

There are plenty of golfers who will play slow no matter what you do. My original point is that they could care less about what is happening behind them. Go across a single lane mountain road. There is some son-of-a-bitch driving 20 mph, holding up a long line of cars behind them. It didn't matter how far apart they originally started on the road, the line is still stuck behind the slow poke. You can drive as fast as you want until you reach the slow driver, but you'll stillsh at the same time as if you had been stuck behond him since the beginning.

The one and only answer is to get the inconsiderate golfers off the course. Then perhaps 12 minute tee times will make sense. Until courses are willing to piss off the inconsiderate, we will be stuck with slow play. Do all these other measures all you want, you are still going to be stuck as the slow pace of the slowest group.

Total = 176

That is capacity.

Would a course be pissed or happy if it exceeded that number?

If someone on the 12th hole has three holes open ahead of them, does the course just suck it up and sell 20 or so fewer green fees or do they continue to send people off the first tee to eventually get stuck in the bottleneck?

I concede your point. On a course full of considerate golfers, 12 minute tee times can work better. Considerate golfers can create a course with more than a single lane of traffic. Problems such as lost balls or bad holes can be dealt with in a reasonable manner, without slowing down the flow of the course. But considerate golfers, like considerate drivers, are gone, a thing of the past.  

Then again, of golf course only allowed considerate golfers, there would only be about 5 percent of the current number of golfers, solving the entire problem.

Dan King

There are now more golf clubs in the world than Gideon bibles, more golf balls than missionaries, and, if every golfer in the world, male and female, were laid end to end, I, for one, would leave them there.
 --Michael Parkinson (president of the Anti-Golf Society)

[RJ_Daley]

Just a small point, as I haven't read ALL of this thread.  Dan, I think there is a point of diminishing returns at a place like Disneyland.  Once too many folk are jammed in those serpentine turnstyle waiting lines, and everything slows down to gridlock, I do believe that sales reach a point where they actually drop off, because everything from food service to tgrinket sales reach that same state of gridlock.  I do believe that the whole register sales capacity is metered and monitored, and they know when that gridlock-saturation point is reached.

As to golf courses, the culture of consideration, the education of players, and the peer preassure thing is the primary key to encouraging effecient play.  Certain course set-up and maintenance features are quite important.  Private clubs have a better opportunity to address the playing culture than public, muni, daily fee, or CCFADs.

Keep them dogies movin, Rawhide!

[A_Clay_Man]

My Brother Daniel, Please do not lose hope and do not degenerate to the level of the A-hole. Pick your spots, and deal with the hand dealt.

A solution, there is at least one. The fact that the Owner/operator won't do them, focuses accountability right back onto them.

[Dan King]

Adam Clayman writes:
A solution, there is at least one. The fact that the Owner/operator won't do them, focuses accountability right back onto them.

The owner/operators job in life is to make money, not to supply a more pleasant experience. If supplying a more pleasant experience makes them more money, then they will do it.

If we care about golf, then we must stop giving them money for a crappy experience. It's our job to force them to stop letting the inconsiderate golfer do what ever they want.

RJ_Daley writes:
Just a small point, as I haven't read ALL of this thread.  Dan, I think there is a point of diminishing returns at a place like Disneyland.  Once too many folk are jammed in those serpentine turnstyle waiting lines, and everything slows down to gridlock, I do believe that sales reach a point where they actually drop off, because everything from food service to tgrinket sales reach that same state of gridlock.

Isn't the gridlock point the register? If you are looking for money, isn't having the register as the gridlock point an ideal? It means you are bringing in money as fast as you can. If your gridlock point is elsewhere, then sure, it slows people down in getting to the register, but as long as the gridlock is the register, you are in good shape.

If your gridlock is artificial, because Disneyland decides they will only allow four people every 12 minutes, rather than as fast as they can, then that will hurt sales.

As Kevin said, he believes 176 is the capacity for a golf course. But what if a course can shove 276 people onto the course? Besides selling more green fees, wouldn't that mean more beer sales? Couldn't you sell more polish dogs to 276 people than to 176 people?

Our idea of capacity and Disney's or golf course owners idea of capacity are two different things.

Certain course set-up and maintenance features are quite important.

And my point is that this all meaningless unless you can somehow make golfers considerate of other people. As long as you have golfers who believe  they can play at their own personal pace, with no consideration for others, all course setup and maintenance features are meaningless.

The inconsiderate golfers are already determining the pace of golf, now according to Weed, they will also determine the architecture and maintenance. We are going to allow them to determine that courses need to be more vanilla, in the off-chance that could speed them up a step or two. If those of us who care would stop allowing this to happen, we would suddenly have a voice, and courses would start dealing with the inconsiderate.

Dan King

The reason I don't play golf is because i was a caddie when I was 13. Women never gave up a golf ball that was lost somewhere in the trees and thicket and down through the poison ivy. It was during one of these searches that I vowed to the Lord above that if I ever earned enough money I would never set foot on a course again.
 --Art Buckwald

[Doug Sobieski]

For what it's worth, there is a maximum capacity at the Magic Kingdom in Orlando, although I couldn't tell you how it's determined. It's not uncommon during the highest of high seasons (most regularly in March/April) that they will close the turnstiles. I always assumed that a capacity would apply to the other parks as well if they ever got to that point.

Regards,

Doug

[Joe Hancock]

The owner/operators job in life is to make money, not to supply a more pleasant experience. If supplying a more pleasant experience makes them more money, then they will do it.

I could turn that statement around and declare that the golfer chooses price over substance a high percentage of the time, when it comes to golf experience. It goes back to that initial piece of the puzzle: How well liked is the course? Does it have what it takes to both turn a profit and be run with the ultimate golf experience being achieved? I know there are some places doing this, but it is a very small segment of golf.

A good course owner/ operater will try to find the best balance of profit and experience based on market, customer base and personal values.

Joe

[Dave_Miller]

Bobby Weed writes about five ideas that architects and course operators can do to speed up play in a Travel Golf column.

Click here for Bobby Weed's column

I disagree with some of it. I think the real culprit is uncaring golfers who only think of their own game and have no awareness of other golfers on the course. It's a shame, golfers used to be some of the more considerate athletes, but no more. Nobody is willing to change the pace if there is the slightest chance it could cost them a shot.

I'm curious about the following comment by Weed. Common sense says this is B.S.

"Studies have shown that tee times spaced 10-12 minutes, separate groups more effectively. The longer interval actually allows more golfers onto the course each day."

It could possibly be true if money was collected as you come off the 18th hole, but all courses I've been to collect money before you tee off.

Dan King

Even when golf cars are free to wander and destroy turfgrass, they contribute to slow play because they contribute to a mentality that has nothing to do with playing golf.
 --Brad Klein

Dan:
Actually I agree with just about everything Bobby Weed says.  He makes some very good points.  As a member of more than one private club I know that I am spoiled as we constantly monitor and harp on speeding up play.  It is rare to have a round go more than 4hours.
However at resort courses the waits can be almost infinite.  In March 2003 I was playing at Pebble Beach on a beautiful Saturday morning.  After teeing off on No.1 the pace was outstanding right through the sixth hole.  When we walked to the 7th Tee there was a group on the green and three groups waiting on the tee.   What happened?
While Waiting I watched the group that left the green go to the 8th Tee and tee off.  There were two players in this group who clearly had never played the game before.  One of them even said to me it was the first time on a golf course.
These two players played six shots to get to the top of the fairway on No.8.  It was unbelievable to watch.  
The ranger came by and watched and did nothing.  His comment was they paid their Fee.  I guess when you pay $20.00 per hole you're entitled to take as long as you want.  
As a result I will never play Pebble again.
Resort courses tend to have this problem.  Private courses probably do not.
Fairways and Greens.
Dave

[JohnV]

Two comments that add to Tommy's comments.

1) When players ride in a cart, they frequently lose track of where to look for their balls.  I know that I do it when I ride and I'm sure many others do.  When you walk and you might have a ball that will require some search, you tend to walk straight towards it and usually end up looking in the correct place.  When you ride and you go along the cart path then over to the other guys ball and finally get around to looking for yours you probably won't get it right.  I frequently walk while playing with 3 others who are riding and I'm much better at going straight to where their ball is than they are.

2) Containment mounds that have bad country on the back side are horrible.  As you have no idea where to look in that area for your ball since you didn't see it land.

[Steve_Lemmon]

In my view, a great amount of time is spent looking for lost balls on many courses (with bad golfers, and most golfers, like me, are bad).  The rules anticipate the amount of time that can be spent looking for the balls.  The marshalls can speed up play by actually helping the golfer find his ball.  The courses can speed up play by considering a little more mowing or thinning bushes in certain areas.  

[Gary_Nelson]

I disagree with throwing folks off the course.  Just post a ranger at those bottlenecks with the sole purpose of finding lost tee shots or helping the golfers get back on pace.  This should minimize (not eliminate) the worst offences like the Pebble Beach example mentioned above.

At the risk of being kicked off this forum, I'll bet that many golfers look at 6 hour rounds as FUN.  That's right... I said it...  FUN!!   Heck, they already got marital credit for a day out with the guys.  Why rush around in 4 hours just to come home and do chores?

Strong-arm tactics are OK at private courses.  I say let market forces determine pace of play at the public courses.

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