[Paul_Turner]

A very old pic of the 9th, about 1915-16 in my estimation.

For those who don't know the course.  Behind the green, the land plummets off the "cliff" to the 18th fairway.  There are a few old bunkers behind the green, now in the trees, to save the long shot from that fate.

Note this was before the alternative green was built.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

I've championed getting rid of the trees behind # 9 for years.

It would make a good hole..... spectacular.

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

Yes it's an amazing looking hole, they'd have to remove a lot, but I think it would work.  

I think most people naturally think of the 2nd when thinking about skyline greens at PV.  

Another was the 17th.  I'll post an old pic of this too.

[Paul_Turner]

The 17th, another skyline.  Note that at this time there was fairway up to the green.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for the terrific photos. IMO the skyline green is one of the most underrated and missing elements of modern designs. I'll take skyline over framing anyday.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Here is a view from behind #18 green of the bunkers for #17 on the right.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

BTW, I wonder who Sears and Wendall Landscape architects is?  TE Paul?

Also, the pimple in the green was pretty impressive at one time eh?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Awesome photos, Paul.

I love Pine Valley. It's the number one course in the world, and still exceeded my expectations when I visited. Which only reaffirmed its greatest in my mind.

However, I have to say, of any course in the world, Pine Valley might benefit most from MASSIVE tree removal. These photos of #9 and #17 prove the point.

Wow!

There's an amazingly beautiful landscape there, speactacular vistas hidden by overgrowth. That's not criticism, just fact.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Those are some amazing photos. The 9the green in those photos is Crump's old green (NLE) that never worked very well. There were no bunkers behind it an balls would too easily go over the green and down the bank towards the 18th fairway.

The 17th green in those photos is also Crump's old green (NLE) that was a little too radical.

The photo on the seed ad of the 18th green shows the infamous "pimple" that was eventually removed (Crump intended it as a temporary feature).

It really wouldn't advisable today to try to return the 9th green to a "skyline", in my opinion. Trees on both flanks would need to come down for a very long a way on either sides of that green. Unless that was done (way out to either side behind and to the sidese of the green) the hole would look sort of stupid, in my opinion, with just trees removed directly behind it in a sort of corridor effect.

The really great candidate for a return to a skyline green at PVGC would be #2. It'd be much easier to do (the trees behind it are pretty inconsequential to anything much) and more impressive than #9 as a skyline green.

Great photos---thanks.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

How do you know it was a temporary feature and for what reason?  That would seem odd that they would build a green like that for the feature to be temp.

What FACTS do you have to show us that it was indeed a temporary situation. I want FACTS. Give them To me.

[TEPaul]

"How do you know it was a temporary feature and for what reason?  That would seem odd that they would build a green like that for the feature to be temp."

TommyN;

From the so-called hole by hole "remembrances" of Crump's two closest friends at PVGC, Father Simon Carr and W.P. Smith. The club asked them to write their "remembrances" of all their discussions with Crump over the years as a guideline of Crump's wishes that the 1921 Advisory Committee could follow when it finished the course after Crump's unexpected death.

"What FACTS do you have to show us that it was indeed a temporary situation. I want FACTS. Give them To me."

Here are the facts from Carr and Smith;

"George saw players drive down close to the cross bunker and he was determined to do something to make the last shot of the round something harder than a mashie or mashie-niblick. Just what he never determined. He always intended to modify the hump (so-called "pimple") on the green into a heavy roll reaching to the right hand rear corner to give the player who sliced onto the green a more difficult putt than the player who plays straight to the center"
Dr. S. Carr

10/10/17    "He will take out the hump ("pimple") on the green when he gets ready. He put it in to test if anything could be designed to penalize a sliced shot, the green being so large a bad slice might stay on it. He will put in a roll instead of a hump. The green needs character on account of its size."
W.P. Smith

Not many know or understand that a fair amount of features of all kinds (bunkers, mounds etc) Crump considered to be temporary. He planned to keep working on the course and improving it with continued work and alterations.

The "remembrances" list a number of changes Crump intended to make to the course many of which were incorporated by the 1921 Advisory Committee. Many were done by the committee but not all and even some the committee approved were never completed.

Crump's famous remark (from the "remembrances") when asked when he planned to finally finish the course, was;

"NEVER!"

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Just testing you TE. Just testing you!

(Please notice how I was doing this in the Mucci-style of posting! )

[Paul_Turner]

The 2nd would be the obvious and easiest choice for a skyline green, but I can't help thinking that the 9th might even eclipse that, if they removed all the trees down the 10th and plenty down toward the clubhouse.  

The skyline green at the 9th is less expected than the 2nd because the hole is much more level; that's why I think it would be even more impressive.  Stongly uphill skyline greens are more common-like the 2nd.

Is the 17th approach still skyline, to a degree?  I can't quite recall.

[TEPaul]

"The skyline green at the 9th is less expected than the 2nd because the hole is much more level; that's why I think it would be even more impressive.  Stongly uphill skyline greens are more common-like the 2nd."

Paul:

If the club was to remove all the trees behind #9 and a good distance to either side and behind the green the skyline effect would not exist as it does in those early photos---unfortunately. From back in the fairway the trees in the distance behind the green have grown so much apparently they'd still backdrop that green. You might have to get almost under that green--perhaps inside 100 yards for the "skyline" effect to take place again, and even there I doubt the effect would happen. Do you see those trees just peeking up behind the green in those early photos? Well, those trees are way out in the distance (off the course) and they're a helluva lot higher now than they were in those photos. That hole just can't really be returned to that look in those early photos---and it wouldn't be worth trying.

To a large extent #17 green is still sort of a skyline, although the back tee on #18 backdrops the 17th green--but over that is sky.

[Paul_Turner]

This, I believe is the earliest aerial of PV circa 1920.  If you compare it with those shown in Shackelford's book it's very similar, except in some places it looks like a bomb has been dropped!  If you look closely at the construction roads you can see a truck.

Also it's interesting that the pond has been drained in front of the 5th-see the stream.  The famous pic of the 5th shown in Shackelford's book, shows a flooded pond.  This pic is from the same set as the pics of the 9th and 17th above.  And I know that Crump was still alive when those were taken..I estimate around 1916.  So at some point that pond was drained.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Are you sure about the trees in the background of the 9th?  How can you visualise this?  That picture of Tommy's looks to have fully grown trees for that view.

[TEPaul]

Note the massive sand faces on the fronts of #2 and #18 greens. Those faces could simply not last and hold in place and on #2 that sand face took a part of the green front with it when it collapsed. Flynn reputedly did the more formalized bunkers in the front upslope of #18 to hold the upslope in place.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Yeah, unfortunately I'm sure. I was out there the other day and was looking at that view. Those trees way out in the distance--way off the course would be very much in view if they were to take all the trees down behind and to the sides of that green. I guess the club could take about 1000 chainsaws and go out into Clementon or whatever that is in the distance and knock on a couple hundreds doors and ask if it would be OK to take all the trees down so they could return the 9th green to that skyline look it had in 1915.

Again, thanks for those old photos--they're really something. Note also all the bunkering changes around that green---the result of Alison/Flynn/Thomas/Maxwell redesigns on that green-end.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

You can see that skyline of trees, currently from the 9th fairway?

[TEPaul]

More like coming off the tee. You can see them over the top and beyond the trees behind the green. Take my word for it. If they took all the trees out behind and around that green you'd really see all the trees in the distance backdropping that green. Focus on #2 Paul. If they took 10-20 trees out just behind #2 you'd probably have a total skyline again and it would be awesome hitting a ball up there with nothing behind it.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Just had a look at a modern photo from the tee; I can see what you're saying.  Although I still think it would look better with that farther backdrop.  (It would be more skyline from the lower point in the fairway.)

[SPDB]

Paul -
Nothing to add at the moment, but just wanted to
mention that I think you are as marvelous a resource
as the website on which you post. Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Not surprisingly, I disagree with you on # 9.

The skyline green or it's effect is presented, not from the tee or other locations, but from the intended drive zone.

That's the critical vantage point from which a skyline green works.

Paul Turner's photo from the tee taints your perspective because it reflects the tightened driving corridors, which to the golfer in the drive zone, are visuals removed from his sight.
The focus from the drive zone is solely the green, not the trees immediately flanking the drive zone or between the drive zone and the tee.  Those are out of his field of vision as he prepares to approach # 9 green.

To generalize a statement made by JFK, some people look at things and say why, others look at them and say, why not ?

You've adopted a defensive posture regarding PV.
It's replete in your many posts over the years.
I think your perspective suffers from the same inertia that the club has suffered from over the intervening years, it's a stagnant, if not arrogant approach, and I mean that in an institutional sense.

PV let the golf course get away from them, but, the inherent genious in its design remained intact, and overshadowed any benign neglect on the part of the caretakers.

PV is no different then any other club.
There has to be an ongoing intent to preserve the architecture and intended shot values derived from it.

Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness.

With respect to the hump/bump on # 18, it seems quite clear that Crump always intended to have a feature on that green that would serve his intended architectural purposes.

While the shape of that feature may have been temporary, it's clear that he did want a physical feature to serve a specific purpose, and that feature has been completely removed, which was never Crump's intent.

# 2, # 9 and # 17 are spectacular green sites that work well as skyline greens, provided the club wants to recapture those values and views.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Paul Turner's photo is not taken from the tee--it looks to be taken from the behind the two greens on #8 along the right of the walk down to the fairway. See that treeline in the distance beyond the trees behind #9 green? That's what you'd see behind #9 green from the fairway approach area if you took all the trees down behind it. That's not what I call a "skyline" green. I'd call that a "distant treeline" green.

On the other hand, if you took about 10-20 greens down behind #2 all you'd see behind the green from the approach shot is sky.

[T_MacWood]

I concure with SPDB.

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