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TEPaul

A maintenance question
« on: June 02, 2004, 11:04:23 AM »
What's the exact agronomic definition of "verti-cutting"?

How is it actully done, and with what?

What does it precisely accomplish agronomically and playability-wise.

How often do some of you supers out there like to ideally do it and when? When do you not want to do it?

What's the recovery time these days on some of those new "super grass" strains, the A and G strains, and other types of older strains?

The reason I'm asking is on a question to the Shinnecock super on playability he talked about when to do it (verti-cutting) to avoid a certain condition (ball picking up grass clippings) I think. When laymen discuss things technical and agronomic and the various applications of them you have to concentrate hard or some of this stuff can fly right over your head. If any of you get the chance to discuss these types of things with MarkM keep your mouth shut as much as possible and your ears open!  ;) (particularly if you're a semi-idiot on this agronomic stuff like me).

I guess I've alway thought the primary purpose of verti-cutting is to reduce leaf size but maybe I'm wrong about that.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2004, 11:05:33 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff Goldman

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2004, 11:21:18 AM »
Tom, there is a pretty good explanation in the book "Keepers of the Green", which looks like a USGA history of golf course maintenance and agronomy.  Obviously, I'm not qualified to explain the practivce, but it was apparently invented by a super who somehow attached blades to a device so that the grass pieces (I do not know the true terms) that grow to the sides of blades could be cut, leaving each stem a single, vertical entity without anything growing out diagonally or sideways.  

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

RJ_Daley

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2004, 11:21:53 AM »
Tom, there are various intensities of vertical cutting.  It is generally a technique where slicing blades are set at a specific interval to slice through the plant interface of soil and rhizomes and stolens where thatch builds up.  It reduces the thatch and controls the grain of the turf to be more exactly cut, leading to increasing speed on putting greens.  The deeper more vigorous verticutting can prep for overseeding, or top dressing with brushes then used to work the sand into the soil-rooting interface.

But perhaps when one of our supers comes in for lunch one may see this and respond more knowledgeably.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dave_Miller

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2004, 11:29:14 AM »
What's the exact agronomic definition of "verti-cutting"?

How is it actully done, and with what?

 .

Tommy:
I believe it is done with a verti-cut machine ;D ;D
Best
Dave

TEPaul

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2004, 11:30:11 AM »
"....the plant interface of soil and rhizomes...."

RJ:

Rhizomes??

You better watch your mouth Pal----this is a family website on prime time!

RJ_Daley

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2004, 11:35:23 AM »
OK Tom, I'll try to keep such stoloniferous comments about extravaginal slicing off tillers to an absolute minimum. ;) ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

bhampson

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2004, 03:31:05 PM »
Tom:

I will chime in here since we just verti-cut this morning and I had a detailed discussion with an intern as to why I chose to verti-cut and how we performed the practice.

As some previous posts mentioned, the term verti-cutting means different things to different people.  It is usually always performed with a "vertical mower" or verti-cut reels.  When I think verti-cut I think aggressive depths of 3/16 to a 1/4 inch.  

As a case study,  I verti-cut our pennlinks greens this morning at a depth of about 3/32 to an 1/8 inch and I would call it a grooming versus a full on verti-cut.  The reasoning was that we are starting to see alot of lateral growth right now and topdressing is not enough to handle the lateral growth and blades of grass that are layed over.  So I gave them a little light verti-cut to remove some leaf tissue, stand up the turf, and then allowed the mower to clean up the excess.  I will probably do this again next week in an opposite direction to get more net effect from the practice.

This is an example of one scenario where the verti-cutter is improving the health and playability of greens.  There are many other scenarios where verti-cutting at various depths and frequencies coupled with other activities such as topdressing and scalping for overseeding are used.  There is never a generic answer when it comes to greens maintenance.  All greens are different and they require that you come at them from different angles at different times.

Hope this helps and feel free to contact me directly if you want to hear more.

Brian

A_Clay_Man

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2004, 03:59:20 PM »
Bhampson- Thanks for that !

Tom- From a playability standpoint? I could tell you to play the putts, just slightly straighter, when you see the signs of a recent verti-cut. But somehow I don't think that's what you meant.
 ;)

Marc Haring

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2004, 05:00:08 PM »
Just to state the beedin bloody obvious as we say in my neck of the woods, verticutting stands for vertical cutting as opposed to the horizontal variety i.e. you are mowing vertically and therefore mowing lateral growth. For this reason it has to be set below the normal height of cut so as you penetrate the sward. Grooming is identical to verticutting but less severe and is a product of a ‘groomer’, which is an attachment to greens mowers these days. You will control stolons but not necessarily rhizomes (underground creeping stems) as they are too far into the soil.

The benefits are thatch control (not necessarily removal), grain control, plant health due to surface aeration and removal of dead leaf, speed increase, levelling of the surface (to a certain extent) and to provide a key for the addition of top dressings especially when dealing with the A and G grasses, also firming of the surface but again only slightly.

Mr Hampson was spot on when he stated that there is no generic answer and like all things in greenkeeping it has so much to do with the experience and feel of the man in charge. For instance, verticut TOC’s greens on a regular basis and by the Links Trophy, you’d have nothing left.    

TEPaul

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2004, 12:19:20 PM »
Thank you all for the contributions. I'll have a few more questions and remarks on this from time to time.

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2004, 05:08:17 PM »
bhampson:  What type of grass are you growing and how often do you repeat the process?

At my club we are growing Poa.  Our super is grooming/verticutting on alternating weeks to reduce density. He is topdressing in the intervening weeks. By doing this he has been able to maintain "acceptable" green speeds without lowering mowing heigths to ridiculous levels.  

This is our first year of this schedule and I simply wonder how it compares to other areas.  The group might find it interesting that last summer we had gone to mowing putting surfaces at 85/1000ths of a inch(that is short) and some members still complained about slow green speeds.  We have returned to 110/1000ths so far this year and green speeds have remained about the same following the regimen described above.

Justin_Zook

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2004, 05:09:19 PM »
Tom,

A very neat and tidy answer is this...

Imagine a circular saw blade.  Now imagine about 12 of them spaced on an axel about an inch or so apart.  This axel connected to a belt which is connected to a motor.  It spins at a very high rate, removing the thatch, roots, organic matter, etc., the same way a blade would remove saw dust from a piece of wood.

While there are probably many companies that make machines like this, Graden makes probably one of the more popular ones out there on the market.  

Recovery time depends on soil temperatures.  The grass should heal in about 3 weeks, and in about a month or so, there shouldn't really be any visual signs that anything was ever done.  

You probably shouldn't go crazy with it during late June, all of July and all of August because of the intense sunlight and wilt issues.  During some of the warmer Spring and Fall months, I would think, it would be ideal.

You are semi-right about the "leaf stress."  While it initially is very hard on the leaf, causing it to stress immensely, over a very short time, the roots are able to get more water, nutrients and air.  This creates a more healthy plant, and allows the plant to be more stress tolerant.  (Stress being that of anything that is not advantageous to the health of the plant, e.i. drought.)
We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2004, 10:58:15 PM »
While most of the agronomic benefits have already been outlined, I would like to add a note of caution. Any cultural practice used to maintain turf can vary widely in its use/ timing based on location, soils, turfgrass species, playability expectations and so on. What works in northern Michigan may not be a good idea in southern Michigan, for instance. While informative, posts like this should not be used to address a superintendants practices or decisions that he or she feels is best for their course.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Don_Mahaffey

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2004, 11:22:51 PM »
Joe,
Good post. You dry yet?

One other note on vert-cutting. IMO, it is basically used to keep the surface (talking about greens here) smooth and uniform. It always scares me when someone writes about verti-cutting reducing or removing thatch. Maybe a little, but in no way is it a substitute for hollow core aerification. Maybe the graden when used aggressively, but even linier arefication like the graden hasn't shown to reduce thatch like good ole hollow core aerification.

I like to verti-cut my bent/poa greens weekly going just deep enough to pull up a very small amount of sand. When I managed bermuda I went a lot deeper and would often double verti-cut during peak growing season.

TEPaul

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2004, 11:56:35 PM »
If you guys verti-cut your greens weekly the visual recovery time must be real rapid or maybe even the result of verti-cutting is visually imperceptible. It looks like my club might be about to get into regular verti-cutting on our new A-4 greens as one of a couple of ways to reduce leaf size. This new A-4 is really awesome, by the way.

igrowgrass

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2004, 02:42:13 PM »
Mr. TEPaul
Take 12 chinese throwing stars(thats what I think they look like) and turn them so they are perpindicular to the surface of the green.  These will of course be attached inside the cutting units of a triplex machine most of the time.  My understanding of verticutting has always been to promote upright growth ball roll distance(or green speed as most people refer to it as, but how fast is a green?)  will increase, because the ball is rolling more on the tips of the plant and not on the lateral laid over plant blades.  Of all of the clubs I have worked at, on the same day as verticutting you topdress filling in the channels you have created with sand to break up Organic Matter accumulations within the rootzone and increase oxygen exchange and water flow through the profile.  The amount of times you should verticut during a year depends on the time of the year and the health of the plant.  One superintendent in Michigan, has been verticutting every week for nearly 20 years I believe and doesn't aerify in the spring of the fall, because his intense maintenance program for verticutting every week is removing enough lateral growth, organic matter, and many more unwanted characteristics within the rhizosphere that aerification is unneccesary.  

Dave_Wilber

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2004, 08:29:27 PM »
Wow.

With so many experts here...who needs real knowledge? Keep dropping those fancy agronomy words. I'm gonna start headhunting some of you guys to grow grass pretty soon.  :-\

(note...actual turfheads are NOT who my comment here is directed to) :)

---------
Dave Wilber
Wilber Consulting--Coaching, Writing Broadcasting, Agronomy
davewilber@yahoo.com
twitter: @turfgrasszealot
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"No one goes to play the great courses we talk about here because they do a nice bowl of soup. Soup helps, but you can’t putt in it." --Wilber

Forrest Richardson

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2004, 08:44:06 PM »
I haven't read this entire thread, but a benefit of verticutting is increased oxygen below the surface of the plant's leaves.

In Hawaii, Jack Snyder transformed all of Kaanapali's greens (1960s) by lightly verticutting every week. So light that guests and members really didn't notice. The thatch was so built up that the plant was feeding off its newfound "upper crust" rather than digging deep to throw its roots down into the sand.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2004, 09:51:27 PM »
Dave,
I just got to reading this thread, and as a complete moron as they come when it comes to growing grass (A very bleak and dark chapter of my golf architectural studies which gives me a failing grade) I didn't see where anyone who doesn't grow grass for a living (turfhead) was anywhere out of line.

I think we should be encouraging more to post on the agronomical side then stay away from it don't you?

blasbe1

Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2004, 12:01:24 AM »
We have several greens with runoff/collection areas and the grass that is only a couple of seasons young is somewhat grainy, so our Superintendent has verticut them recently and will do so several more times I believe with the intent of reducing the grain and encouraging a uniform growth so the side slopes of the green will play as smooth as possible, thereby leading to a more consistant roll if the shot of choice is to putt.

We've also verticut all of our greens several times a year for the last four years or so and within the first year virtually all thatch was gone.  I only really understand the technique by its affect on playing conditions but it certainly seems to me to be a very effective way to remove thatch and reduce grain.  

Of course our greens are mostly bent with some poa and I don't know if this technique works on bermuda grass that seems to be a much more sprawling grass.  

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2004, 12:06:33 AM »
Jason — For bermudagrass and paspalumgrass the positive effects of verticutting are heightened.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2004, 12:06:59 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

RJ_Daley

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2004, 12:39:30 AM »
While I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, I do think I have been around long enough to recognise when condescension is used by certain professionals and consultants to create an atmosphere of fear and insecurity that only "they" can advise on a practice of a craft-skill-trade, or resolve a problem because their knowledge is so unique and full of shock and awe.

I don't think anyone particularly cares for an M.D. that talks down to you or tries of overwhelm you with medical jargon, when a simple and direct explanation is usually within most of the patient's grasp.  I have been around many MDs in ERs and such, and have seen the really good M.Ds,  always able to communicate to patients and family in layman's terms to adequately explain what and why complicated trauma and treatments were occuring.

Greenkeeper or superintendent is a profession that has excellent practitioners from barely highschool educated fellows that have been doing it a very long time and get excellent results consistently, to MS and PHd.s who manage golf courses and once in a while we hear they made a big time boo boo.  IN many cases, these supers work in somewhat insecure job environments where Mother Nature and unrealistic membership expectations keeps them fearful.  Thus, a nice consultant industry can thrive.  

Tom Paul asked a simple question about verti-cutting that several folks offered him some information, and generally correct info, that rendered him a bit more knowledgeable than when he started.  I don't see too much above that would render Tom Paul an imbecile or dangerous if he absorbed the info offered him.  I don't see where simple turf questions and discussion of various cultural or agronomic practices will rise to the level of protecting closely guarded trade secrets such as passing on nuclear secrets regulated by the NRC.  I'm pretty sure that most anyone that passed the minimum science requirement of an undergrad degree, or even AP earth science-biology or chem in highschool, can easily grasp anything written in some of the most widely acclaimed entry level turf science books.  I've been in seminars where there was a wide variety of educational levels of supers, and heard them all have different opinons about these vary matters like how fequent and intense to verti-cut.  And, at the end of such a discussion, I don't believe you would have much more than what the various lay people and superintendents offered above as an adequate answer to Tom Paul's question.

Dave, you have a well earned reputation for being an authority in your field.  I respect that.  But, please don't be so condescending if we lay people have a little fun getting into the technical discussion.  Remember the M.D. thing above.  Realise that many of us are proud that we make the effort to read and learn about turf because it relates to our wider passion about GCA and all things involving the game of golf.  We love it when practicing supers correct us, or help us to a deeper understanding of an issue, particularly if they put things in laymans terms, which in my opinon any good consultant can do.  And, don't worry if I screw up and over fertilize my lawn, or rent a verticutter or core aerifier and rip up to much turf and ground allowing pest-disease-weed infestation.  I won't blame you or any other turf professional who may have suggested the practice.  Hopefully not too many of my neighbors will be hurt by any of my missteps either. ::)

 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2004, 12:42:40 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2004, 12:50:00 AM »
I have verticut this thread. It now looks like this:

eeperuperinre mowing vertically and therefore mowing lateral growth. For this reason it has to be set below the normal heig of cu sos you penetrte the swad. oong is identical to verticuttinss severe and is  prodt of a ‘groomer’, which s an attachmnt to greens to urface aeration and removl of dead leaf, speease, leveling of the surfac (to a certai extent) and tngit has so ud ithxperiene and feel ofar basis and by the Links Trophy, you’d have nothing left.   

nfo, that rendered him a bit more knowledgeable than when he started.  I done too much above that woulder Taul an imbecilngerous if he rbehe info offered him.  I don't see where simple tuuestions discussion of varioultural or agronomic practices will rise to thevel of protecting closely guarded traded by the NRI'm pretty sure that mose that pasminimum scienreqmeof anndergrad degree, or even AP earth science-bioten in some of the most widely acclaied entry lee wid vriety of levels of st.d, at the enf such a iscussion, I don't eve you woud  much more than what thre mowing vertically and therefore mowing lateral growth. For this reason it has to be set below the normal height of cut so as you penetrate the sward. Grooming is identical to verticutting but less severe and is a product of a ‘groomer’, which is an attachment to greens mowers these days. You will control stolons but not necessarily rhizomes (underground creeping st
The benefits are thlth due to surfce aeration and removal of dead leaf, speeincre, levelling fthe surface (to a certain extent) and tprovith the A and G grasses, also firming of the surfae ut again only slightlyn he stated that there is no generic answer and like all things in greenkeeping it has so much to do with the experi and feel of the man in charge. For instance, verticut TOC’s greens on a regular basis and by the Links Trophy, you’d have nothing left.   

 an authority in your field.  I et tht, ple don't be soe technical dscusn.  Remember the D. g ab.  Realiss
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2004, 12:53:43 AM »
Forrest, I'm going to turn off this PC now, and go to the den and try to figure out what you are drinking, and have one myself, before I turn in... ;D 8) :P
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Hancock

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Re:A maintenance question
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2004, 09:04:07 AM »
Forrest,

You are now part of an elite group of posters that has made me laugh hard enough to bring tears.

Congratulations,

Joe

p.s. Certificate of Award to follow
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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