[Cory Lewis]

Absolutetly number one for me is Bethpage Black, what a masterpiece,

1. Bethpage Black
2. Somerset Hills
3. Ridgewood
4. Winged Foot East
5. Baltusrol Upper

[mark chalfant]

     San Francisco
     Newport
     Five  Farms

     Somerset  Hills
     Fenway
     Baltusrol  upper
     
     

[Gerry B]

winged foot west
san francisco
somerset hills
bethpage black
quaker ridge
and honorable mention to:
baltusrol upper
baltimore cc five farms east

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Steve-

  The Blue is really a composite, currently not all Tillinghast--I realize you know this.  
  It's interesting to note that hole 12 on Yellow (which, on the original Blue Course from 1935, was the "Reef" hole.  It's 313, I think, from the back tees, and, although neglect has caused a loss of the defining feature, the "reef" across the fairway (actually a diagonal bunker), I read somewhere that it is being restored and a plaque to commemorate historical significance is in the works.  
  Do you know the original Blue Course routing?  There is an old aerial from about '35 in the clubhouse which shows the original four courses.  I know for a fact that most of holes 10-18 of Yellow were originally part of the first nine for the original Blue Course.  (Check out the book America's Linksland in the Bethpage section for a photo of a course map from around the park opening, page 183). Hole #10 was originally Blue #3, etc.  It would be interesting to do an overlay.  I am pretty certain, from the appearance of the bunkering that some of the holes on the second nine of today's Blue Course were orginally part of the 1935 Blue Course (#s 13, 14, 15, 16) and not created by Alfred Tull around 1958 to create the Yellow.  

[Matt_Ward]

As a long time observer of Jersey golf I have to say that Ridgewood -- while still a fine layout -- needs to do some serious tree cutting on the site. The East & West make for a fine combo and the Center has its share of solid holes. The club has certainly cut down trees but the place resembles more of a bowling alley and needs to do a bit more IMHO.

Let me mention that nearby to Ridgewood is Alpine which sports some of the most demanding greens you can encounter for a Tillie layout -- on par with many you find at Somerset Hills and the Winged Foot duo.

One note on Bethpage Blue -- very few people ever speak about the demanding existing front nine. You simply have to have your game in tow from the very first tee shot.

If I had to list a top Tillie list I would split them between championship and membership type courses ...

CHAMPIONSHIP               MEMBERSHIP
Winged Foot / West         San Francisco GC
Bethpage / Black             Fenway
Baltusrol / Lower             Winged Foot / East
                                   Quaker Ridge
                                   Somerset Hills
                                   Baltimore CC / Five Farms

Honorable Mention: Newport, Baltusrol / Upper, Ridgewood (E&W), Phil Cricket, Brook Hollow

Most Underrated -- Bethpage Red *more people need to play it to appreciate it's qualities.  

On a personal front I would say that the combo of Winged Foot / West and the Black make for golf of the highest order. You'd best make sure you bring your "A" game when playing either of these two supreme giants of designs. I would have both of them among my personal bests in the USA.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I haven't played it, but I am surprised at how little acknowledgement you are giving Winged Foot East.  For those who have played it, what keeps it out of your top 5?

Or is it that not many here have played it?

[Matt_Ward]

Lynn:

I don't believe Winged Foot / East gets little attention -- in fact, redanman has stated that WF / East would likely be the top rated course in no less than 25 states in the USA.

In many ways Winged Foot East is the baby brother to the more intense and rigorous West layout.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

One note on Bethpage Blue -- very few people ever speak about the demanding existing front nine. You simply have to have your game in tow from the very first tee shot.

Most Underrated -- Bethpage Red *more people need to play it to appreciate it's qualities.  

Matt-
I'm from NJ originally, so I would love to talk about Jersey courses anytime.  Our state is so deep in terms of courses, although my experience was relegated primarily to public courses.  
I mentioned this earlier--Bethpage Blue isn't a true Tillinghast, the original was a true Tillinghast (1935).  In '58, Alfred Tull created the Yellow, which utilized some of the original Blue.  Yes, the first nine holes are demanding (esp. #2, 6, 8,9), but I don't think any of those are Tillinghast.  I'll reference America's Linksland, there is a map of the original four courses dating from the 1930s on page 183.  Most of today's second nine of the Yellow Course was originally the first nine of the original Blue.  If you get out there to play, look at the bunkering on the second nine (of Yellow)--it's exactly like the bunkers on the Red and some of the Black!  The map is a little hard to read in the book, but the current Yellow #10 was the original Blue #3.  Hole 12 was the original Blue #5, the famous "Reef" hole--today, it still plays at about 300 yards from the tips, but the hazard that originally crossed the entire fairway has been altered to 2 bunkers on either side of the fairway at about 200 yards (if I remember correctly; I last played Yellow in June of '03).  Some other posts on here have said that the Yellow #12 will be restored to its original design, making it a little tougher, with a plaque to designate historical significance.  Hole 14 on Yellow is a par 3, about 185 yards, and the bunkering is beautiful.  
Back to the Blue, from the looks of the bunkers in my playing experience and what I can glean from the map, the 13th through 16th holes on the second nine of today's Blue are authentic Tillinghast.  
Next time you play out there, if you play either course, have a look and let me know what you think.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Dbraunsdorf,

Since I don't know your first name, you are correct in your basic analysis of the changes to the original Blue Course and the new Yellow & Blue.

From an historical perspective, the twelfth of the Yellow, as the original #5 of the Blue, the REEF Hole, is most important. Tillinghast wrote that this style hole had been much copied, yet the only ones that are actually known are at Newport & Bethpage.

There are plans in place to restore the twelfth to the original design and recreate the REEF! They will also put a plaque at the tee to commemorate its special significance.

Tomorrow I have the pleasure of giving a tour of the courses and to enjoy a tour of the clubhouse and facilities, all of which has been arranged to show it to some of Tilly's descendents, including his granddaughter Barbara. She lived in the house behind his in Harrington Park, and lived with her family during the last 2 years of his life and was his favorite grandchild. He took her to movies, she spent time in his office with him when he was at work writing and designing, and she walked some courses with him when he was working on them.

She has not been back to Bethpage since she walked the property with him back in the 30s, when it was under construction.

It is going to be a wonderful treat.

[wsmorrison]

I don't think one person mentioned Sunnehanna.  I am going to see this course sometime later this year.  Tom Paul and others I've spoken to speak very highly about it.  They hold one of the most special amateur invitationals in the country.  I'm not much into these lists--they do help me understand the thinking of some of youse guys.  But for not one person to mention it is surprising.  Does it get such little attention because so few have seen it?  Flynn proposed a major revision of the course, it is inconclusive so far if anything was done.  Ron Forse, who has worked on the course saw the drawings and believes there was some measure of implementation.  So what do all you guys who play so many courses think of Sunnehanna?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Dbraunsdorf,

Since I don't know your first name, you are correct in your basic analysis of the changes to the original Blue Course and the new Yellow & Blue.

From an historical perspective, the twelfth of the Yellow, as the original #5 of the Blue, the REEF Hole, is most important. Tillinghast wrote that this style hole had been much copied, yet the only ones that are actually known are at Newport & Bethpage.

There are plans in place to restore the twelfth to the original design and recreate the REEF! They will also put a plaque at the tee to commemorate its special significance.

Tomorrow I have the pleasure of giving a tour of the courses and to enjoy a tour of the clubhouse and facilities, all of which has been arranged to show it to some of Tilly's descendents, including his granddaughter Barbara. She lived in the house behind his in Harrington Park, and lived with her family during the last 2 years of his life and was his favorite grandchild. He took her to movies, she spent time in his office with him when he was at work writing and designing, and she walked some courses with him when he was working on them.

She has not been back to Bethpage since she walked the property with him back in the 30s, when it was under construction.

It is going to be a wonderful treat.

Phil-

Thanks for the kind words!  My first name is Doug.  Bethpage is probably my favorite place to play--despite the traffic, slow play, rude state employees and gruff old men--all of those courses are so good, and it's so cheap.  I have always seemed to play with nice people whenever I go.  
Have you had a chance to read America's Linksland?  Good book, many old photos, etc.  It's not heavy on architecture, but many photos of courses from 1900 until today can be seen--including old photos of Wheatley Hills (Emmet), the original Fresh Meadow (AWT), Pomonok (Emmet, NLE), Garden City, etc.  
Based on the map in the book, it's a little hard to read, but it looks to me that the original Tillinghast routing can be traced as follows:
#1 Blue- about the same as today's #1 Blue (this was shortened to build a practice green behind the teebox)
#2 Blue- can be found as today's #9 Yellow.  Look at the bunkering on #9 Yellow and let me know what you think.
#3 Blue- the same hole as today's #10 Yellow.
#4 Blue- the same hole (roughly) as today's #11 Yellow
#5 Blue- THE REEF, today's #12 Yellow
#6 Blue- today's #13 Yellow, a great Tillinghast bunker is still there today!
#7 Blue- today's #14 Yellow, wonderful Bethpage Tillinghast bunkering is still there today!  
#8 Blue- I THINK it's today's 17th of Yellow-the yardages are about the same (475 yds)
#9 Blue- I THINK it's today's #8 Yellow (I seem to remember some interesting bunkering when I played last June). From the book as compared to how it plays today, it looks like the fairway was shifted a bit.  Might be the original green.  
#10 Blue- I THINK it's today's #7 Yellow (from the book, as compared to today's scorecard, yardages are about right, but I can't remember any special features, bunkering, etc.)
#11 Blue- From the appearance in the book, I THINK this hole is completely gone.  
#12 Blue- I THINK this hole is completely gone as well, although I don't recall anything in particular one way or the other.  
#13 Blue- I THINK this hole is completely gone as well, although from the look of the map, it may have been used to create part of today's #3 Yellow.  
#14 Blue- it looks like the tee boxes were in the vicinity of today's #2 Blue tee boxes or Blue #8 green, but I am not certain here.  
#15 Blue- this may or may not have been part of today's # 15 Blue.  The bunkering in front of the green is interesting and reminds me A LOT of AWT.  
#16 Blue- From the looks of the book and today's bunkering, I am led to believe this was the exact same hole.
#17 Blue- From the look of the book, it looks as this is the same as today's #17 Blue as well.  The map in the book shows a pond on this hole below the elevated teeing area to the left (no pond exists today).  The bunker right of the green on the map is there today, in neglected form, but the shape suggests this was once grander in size and shape.
#18 Blue- I'm not certain, but I THINK that part of this hole was used to create today's #9 Blue.   Today's #s 9 and 18 on Blue are both quirky holes, if I remember correctly there are strange tee shots, and they appear (to my eyes) to have been shoehorned into their respective spaces.  

Nevertheless, I love coming here to play.  Please let me know what's currently going on with the Reef hole.  (Tied up in red tape) I haven't driven up from Maryland yet to play there this year (I used to live in NJ and I could visit family and play the same day)  as I know there are a lot of temp greens due to ice damage, but I plan to be up at least once before Shinnecock in June.  Thanks again!

Doug Braunsdorf

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lynn Shackelford,

WFE is a wonderful golf course, but it has two strikes against it.

It lives in the shadow of its big brother WFW, and many are reluctant to give high acclaim to two golf courses which are part of the same 36 hole complex.

In addition, Quaker Ridge is a block away, and Fenway's close as well.

So, for many, a problem exists in the form that few are willing to give both courses high marks ahead of some of their neighbors.

The element of a sense of "fairness" rears its head again.

It's like someone wanting to give a rich person more money to the exclusion of the less fortunate.
Somehow, the concept has an alien ring to it.

[ChipOat]

Geoffrey:

You have clearly paid more attention to this than I but I have never considered Rockaway to be a Tillinghast course.  He did some of what is now the current routing (4-5 holes??) but is that enough to call it "his"?

The next question is whether ANYBODY is responsible for enough of RHC to call it their own??  Devereaux Emmett gets enough mention that RHC was an original constituent of the DE Cup matches.

Which might inspire me to put up a thread about the best courses that, due to circumstance, are a true amalgamation of several different architects' work.

Maybe RHC is one of the best of those.

Or maybe I'm (ironically) ignorant of the extent of Tillinghast's contribution to Rockaway as we know it today.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

Not surprisingly, I disagree with almost every post, and every ranking made so far.

If I had to play an AWT course, day in and day out, I would make but one choice.

NEWPORT

For day in and day out play, who amongst you would choose any of the others over Newport, and why ?

Those that haven't played Newport are disqualified from answering the above question.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I see a coastal bias here so I will throw out Golden Valley CC in Minnesota for at least an honorable mention!

Any other Tillie mid western designs that deserve credit?

[Patrick_Mucci]

W H Cosgrove,

The problem with your choice is your golfing season is limited to the July 4th weekend  

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