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Joel_Stewart

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Tour players complain about tour courses
« on: April 21, 2004, 08:55:47 PM »
This weeks GolfWorld has a small article on Phil Blackmar (now with the PGA Tour) meeting last week with tour players who complained most tour courses all look the same.  They are asking for some variety, instead of 7600 yard courses where all they do is hit the ball hard.

Is this justified and who is to blame if its true?

George Pazin

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2004, 09:36:07 PM »
Yes, as to if it's justified. Except for the majors, Kapalua, TPC and the old Riv, it's hard to find anything entertaining about the courses and the resulting tourneys. The Honda at Mirasol was encouraging in that it was a bit different - hopefully they won't change it to make it the same as the others.

I blame: 1) the Tour - they are fixated on these guys are good and distance numbers, so they like the big drive short iron putting contest birdie fests that I have quit watching and 2) the players for failing to voice their opinions, opting instead for safe comments about the wonderful condition that all the tour stops are in.

All in all, I'd rather watch the Euro Tour, the Nationwide Tour or the LPGA - but mostly I just watch the majors (by way of comparison, just a couple years ago I taped virtually every final round and watched it Sunday eveing while doing other things).

"These guys are good" has morphed into "These guys are long and boring." It takes an astute observer to learn the right lessons, and I don't think there are many astute observers of the scene today. ('Cept Geoff.... :))
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bill Gayne

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2004, 09:41:31 PM »
I think it is justified and the tour itself is to blame. The tour is moving more to TPC courses. Of top of my head the TPC course tournaments include Players Championship, Avenal, Memphis, Boston, and Hartford. There maybe more that I can't remember. Based on what I see on TV you could take the last four and interchange them and no one would be able to tell the difference. For financial purposes, I believe that the tour wants courses like these to be the model of tournament golf and what we all will want to play and live on.

Steve Lang

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2004, 10:52:26 PM »
 8)

Was it a majority of players complaining, or just a few?

This week the tour is at Redstone in Houston (its second year away from the "short 7000 yd" Woodlands TPC course, and while Redstone will stretch out to around 7500 yards for the pros, today the pro-ams were played there at around 6100 yards, and the rounds were still 5 hours long..

Most of the news clips I've seen have players saying how nice it is to have driver and 4-5 irons into a lot of greens.. I'd hate to see all the tour courses look like Redstone, long and boring, but frankly these guys are good!  It seems it just comes down to who has the mental fortitude and the right stuff to go the lowest.. reputations notwithstanding on any given week.  

Is parity as boring as dominance?


Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tyler Kearns

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2004, 11:15:12 PM »
George,
 
    Reading your list, I thought you had to have overlooked some notable designs, but scrolling down the PGA Tour schedule, I only see one glaring omission - Pebble Beach. Perhaps Colonial & Harbour Town could be added to that list, or Westchester?

Tyler Kearns

Doug Siebert

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2004, 12:23:38 AM »
I've complained about this for years.  And it is way more than just the TPC courses you mentioned.  The QC Open has one about an hour's drive from where I live.  I've played that course, it isn't all that great.  I played the TPC in Dearborn and didn't think much of that one either.  There was one I played in the 80s in Arizona that I think was a TPC, I'm not sure, but I did really like that one.  But I was young and quite possibly stupid then :)  They are all pretty much interchangeable.  Generic TPC Course #23 is the same as #24.

The only tournaments I never miss are the Masters and the British Open.  The US Open is occasionally entertaining, but it depends on how badly they mess up the setup.  The PGA is never worth watching, it is just like any other PGA tour stop with an extra 1" of rough and fairways 5 yards narrower.  Sometimes I'll watch tournaments played at courses I like if I'm not doing anything else, I watched an hour or two at Harbour Town, for instance.  But if they took everything but the Masters and British Open off TV you wouldn't hear me complaining.  I think it'd be good for golf, people wouldn't think their course should look like a TPC course, and the contrast between ANGC and the Open rota would show people that golf courses should come in many shapes, sizes and colors!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Alfie

Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2004, 05:14:56 AM »
George Pazin said ;

I blame: 1) the Tour - they are fixated on these guys are good and distance numbers, so they like the big drive short iron putting contest birdie fests that I have quit watching and 2) the players for failing to voice their opinions, opting instead for safe comments about the wonderful condition that all the tour stops are in.
....................

George,

1) absolutely correct
2) never a truer word spoken and (I believe) a key factor in solving many of golf's problems !

The "Honesty" in golf is diminishing rapidly due to the "power" it has been suppressed by, via commercialisation and the equipment manufacturer's raison d'etre of having to GROW all things bigger !
Can you imagine any tour pro (in the world) making comments such as mine ? No way, and most of us know why !
These guys have real talent and that talent is being suppressed also ! They also possess the "influence" which could change matters ; but they know they can't bite the hand that feeds them !

I'm not against general commercialisation ; free trade ; growing markets etc....

But human greed has a strength all of it's own and inevitably "Honesty" is compromised ! And when that happens - the giant's of this world become tyrants and bullies !

And does any of this have any relevance in golf ?

Of course, it does !

Alfie Ward.

Jfaspen

Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2004, 08:37:32 AM »
I think this reasoning is why I really enjoy the west coast swing more than any other time of the year on the Tour.  The courses in Hawaii are visually stunning and Kapalua is amazing to see.  (Esp from Michigan in January).  
The spectacle that is TPC scottsdale (esp 16) is always fun to watch.  
Pebble is pebble although the TV coverage of that tournament gets worse every year.  It is almost worth watching for the blimp shot CPC.
Rivera is a classic course that I hope to see for myself someday.. A model of how golf should be done..
The hope is fun to watch because NBC doesnt show the celebs as much as CBS with Pebble and seeing the birdie race is a lot of fun.
I think Torrey Pines is a special course, worthy of distinction from your run of the mill tourstop.
Finally, the matchplay championship offers a different format and seems more competitive than the other tournaments..

Jeff

A_Clay_Man

Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 08:52:04 AM »
Phil Blackmar must be a lurker!

The courses the boys play in just  Jan. and Feb. are like night and day. From the Plantation course, to whatever the hell that place is on Oahu. From PB and The Riv, to the jokes in the desert of Palm Springs and Scottsdale. Watching the PGA Tour, with an architectural eye, gets very confusing to us students. Not too mention BORING.

If the tour doesn't change their venues, to adapt to the changing economics and the sport thrill seeking desires of an XBox generation and an aging populus of boomers, they will likely drown in their own success.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2004, 09:30:35 AM »
In an interview in today's Golf Weekly Greg Turner says:

Too many courses today are imposed on the landscape rather than built into it.  And the challenge of them is almost entirely through the air.  As a consequence, the game is less multi-faceted than it could be.  I want to see the ball on the ground more.  I want to see courses where a greater range of shots is required.  That doesn't mean courses should be presecriptive.  But being able to stand up and see that you can play a shot three or four different ways has to be good.  That's how courses retain their interest.....

....The distance the ball travels through the air has lessened the need  for players to develop a range of shot-making skills.  And it is harder to hit those shots with modern equipment.  Then again, if we played a lot more links golf on courses where a greater diversity of shot-making questions were posed, professionals would be asking manufacturers to produce a different kind of equipment.  The clubs and balls today simply don't suit playing the Portmarnocks or the Muirfields.  But it doesn't matter, as the Tour only goes to such places once or twice a year.'

Apparently he's taking up golf course design.  I hope he has the opportunity to practise what he preaches.

michael j fay

Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2004, 10:26:17 AM »
TPC at Heron Bay, TPC at Avenal, TPC River Highlands, TPC Boston, ad nauseum....

These are ampitheaters not golf courses. They serve a purpose and pretty much suck all the fun out of watching professional golf. But it must be remembered that the builders moved 3,000,000 cubic yards of dirt to give them that natural feel.

What astounds me is what pays for all this TPC nonsense. I know TPC has spent some $ 27 MM at River Highlands. They sold some lots and built some condos but their membership has been shaky since the beginning. If I am not mistaken the TPC courses have been paid for out of the Tour Players Pension Fund. I cannot imagine that the Fund has had much of a return on investment.

I love watching Westchester, Riviera, the Masters, the US Open, the Open Championship and the US Amateur. The courses employed are long and difficult and do a masterful job of defending par at the greens. The PGA Championship has sold out in alternate years to TPC like courses that they own or control and they are doing the same with the Ryder Cup. I have a really hard time equating the K Club or Valhalla with The Country Club or Oak Hill.

Seems that the movers and shakers are trying to make the courses as dull as those playing them. We need more Westchesters and Charlie Rymers.

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2004, 11:04:30 AM »
This year's tournaments held at TPC courses:

FBR Open:  TPC of Scottsdale (AZ)
Players Championship:  TPC at Sawgrass (FL)
BellSouth Classic:  TPC at Sugarloaf (GA)
EDS Byron Nelson:  TPC at Four Seasons (TX)
FedEx St. Jude Classic:  TPC at Southwind (TN)
Booz Allen Classic:  TPC at Avenel (MD)
John Deere Classic:  TPC at Deere Run (IL)
Buick Championship:  TPC at River Highlands (CT)
Deutsche Bank Championship:  TPC of Boston (MA)

I love watching the pros play the TPC Sawgrass course; if only the other TPC courses were as good!

When they played the TPC of Boston last year, players complained about some of the greens, which were tilted front-to-back.  Brad Faxon, who is associated with the course in some capacity, said in response, "it can be fixed".  

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.boston.com/sports/golf/articles/2003/09/03/planners_savor_tournament_eye_the_future?mode=PF

George Pazin

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2004, 03:08:04 PM »
Tyler -

You're right, Pebble was an oversight, borne from my frustration at watching the celebs. Westchester is moderately entertaining, Colonial and Harbour Town less so for me.

Steve -

It's not the parity that I find boring, it's the shots. I thought the event at Mirasol was entertaining because at least they competitors didn't just hit dialed in distances that stopped on a dime and left birdie putts that broke less than one foot.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

tlavin

Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2004, 03:21:52 PM »
Of course Blackmar is right, but the jury is out on the question of how to deal with this plight.  First of all, unless the courses are 7500 yards or some other inhuman length, these robots will play drive-and-pitch all day long.  At the U.S. Open at my club last year, they were hitting nine-irons and wedges into our 496 yard dogleg 18th hole (9th in the championship).  The new Fazio golf course where they played the Honda is a new wrinkle on the question of how to bedevil the pros.  He created Pinehurst-like green complexes with very little square-footage to deal with. Ridiculously undulating greens with impossible hole locations will surely be the next defense to the skill of today's tour players.

The truth is we have now reached a crisis point in golf course design because of the quick leaps encountered in ball and club technology (to say nothing of player fitness and competitiveness of the fields).  Soon, courses will either be designed for the regular Joe or just for the tour, because the greens will be too difficult for high handicappers to deal with, regardless of what tees they play from.

Somehow, classic courses like Riviera, Shinnecock, Oak Hill and Olympia Fields have shown that they can be stretched, tightened and made more difficult by adding rough height and green speed, but how long will this be true?  I can tell you this based on first-hand knowledge: there is no more room for lengthening Riviera or Olympia.

Brock Peyer

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2004, 04:09:06 PM »
How far away is it that we see a course at 8000 yards possibly lengthening Castle Pines?

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2004, 08:14:45 PM »
Didn't Woody Austin create a bit of controvesy for himself this week by blasting the Jacobsen/Hardy design, being the temporary home of the Shell Open, as boring with no variety?

Oh well, things will get better in the next year or so as they move to the new Rees Jones design.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Steve Lang

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Re:Tour players complain about tour courses
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2004, 10:26:15 PM »
 8)

We were out at Redstone today and it is long and boring as I mentioned before, but the big boys weren't tearing it up as they did last year.., the wind was blowing a bit, the rough is a little longer and the pins didn't look real inviting for a Thursday!!!

The new Rj design will be "imposed" on flat terrain only broken up by drainage features.  Looks like they're building some ponds too..

When you watch VJ float a 195 yard shot to the hole with the greatest of ease or young unknowns squashing it 300 down the playing field you just get the feeling that as long as the full swing shot is king, the tech rules..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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