[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael J Fay,

Sadly, my experiences mirror yours.

If people think deficiencies in golf courses are camoflaged by water, they should see the miracles of alotment and accounting on the F&B end.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Daryl

I'm thinking pop corn, cheez whiz and cream--all put in a blender and then cooked in a crock pot for a few days.  Am I getting close?

Steve

I meant "a la mode."  "Haggis au gratin" not only exists, it was on my wedding menu!

[Charlie_Rymer]

Grits are a southern excuse for getting rid of excess corn meal. They are esentially tasteless but when mixed with cheese they become sticky and make great wallpaper paste.

[Charlie_Rymer]

You guys should come down after the first frost in the fall.  That's when we have the grit harvest.  Some places hace grit festivals and even a grit queen.

[John_Cullum]

Obviously we have here a problem of epidemic proportion. At Savannah Golf Club there is a raging battle going on about the construction of a new clubhouse. The resistance is primarily from the more senior members who dont like the multi million dollar price tag, but the course is already suffering as the board struggles to keep the 15 year old renovation going while figuring a way to set aside enough money to build the new one.

The main aggravation to me has always been the attempts to mollify the TENNIS PLAYERS. These are some of the biggest non-contributors to the club operation. I am surprised no one else indicates a problem with the fuzz ballers.

SGC does have excellent food, including grits with or without cheese. The 6.95 daily buffet is the best deal anywhere, for the diners.

And while I have never met a grit queen, I always make it a point to see the Rattlesnake Queen, and Little Miss rattlesnake from the nearby Reidsville rattlesnake roundup, and my personal favotrite, Miss Gum Spirits of Turpentine. All participate in our famous St Patricks day parade. You just gotta love THE South

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Cullum,

We did away with tennis memberships years ago.

Those memberships were started in the 70's when tennis was popular.  The initiation and dues were less then golf members, and we found that they came, played tennis and left, without substantive use of the facilities and food service, thus adding very little to the club's bottom line.

In addition, they didn't mix with the golf members, hence we abandoned the program and gave each tennis member the opportunity to join as a full member.

I always say that it's not the chicken salad, pool or tennis courts that attract our good members, it's the golf course, and as such that's where our efforts should be.

Golfers come up in the morning, have breakfast, play golf, have lunch, and either stay for their wives who play in the afternoon, play cards, or go home.  At least the utilization patterns help the club and foster comraderie.

[michael j fay]

John:

We had tennis courts at Wampanoag for about 15 years. They were at the end of the parking lot next to the range. There was a very high net in between.

At an Annual Meeting about 12 years ago the main Tennis Nazi (female) launched into a diatribe about how the tennis courts in proximity to the driving range caused grave danger.
One of our somewhat inebriated members took exception to her comments saying that he was a daily denizen of the driving range and had never once been hit by a tennis ball. The courts have been an extension of the parking lot ever since.

My wife is both a golfer and a tennis player. She belongs to two tennis clubs and the annual cost is less than one month at the golf club. Country Clubs are in it for golf. The main asset is the GOLF COURSE, not the tennis courts, the Clubhouse or the pool. The golfers pay the bills.

We have faced the problem of trying to please all to extend our membership. Must have a pool to attract young families. HORSEFEATHERS, if you want to join a club teach your wife and children to play golf. If the women want to sun themselves have them join a swim club.

The capital expenditures on the frills of most clubs is astounding and usually has no income flow to offset it.

Tennis players are the worst. They whine about the lack of facilities or quality of facilities and bring their own lunches and drinks. They are usually outfitted with a fuzz ball in the cranium.

[John_Cullum]

I suspect we are going to quickly develop a consensus that the Tennis members are space takers who never spend any money at the club.

On top of that, Savannah Golf Club exists on probably 115 acres or so. The Club really could use the space those 10 or 12 courts take up.

[cary lichtenstein]

Those 12/15 courts are an asset that could be redeployed into a great short game area with multiple traps, putting and chipping greens, an instructional building, etc

[Adam_F_Collins]

From reading a few threads like this, It seems that the general consensus among GCA members is that Further from golf = Further from good. (at least as far as what is included in a golf club facility)

It seems that the safest and most solid route to a successful golf operation might just be a good golf course, practice facility, showers, lockers in a simple but comfortable clubhouse with a view of the course to wait for the sun to come up, frost to thaw, etc - and a seat to sit in - and maybe the simplest of kitchen facilities to prepare the most basic of menus.

It sounds like a lot of munis I know...

Come to think of it, if we could just get good designers to design a few more munis, we'd be back to golf's 'ideal' world...

[cary lichtenstein]

Adam:

We are in the minority. We only care about what is good for our golf.

We must live in the rest of the real world. That means 26 handicap guys, 39 handicap women, card players, boaters, lunch people, etc.

So we must settle. If we can settle for good golf, then I for one will put up with all the rest

[Mike_Young]

Cary L,
I would be careful when using handicaps to equate to golfers and how they see the game.  I know many low handicappers that have no idea and I know plenty of high handicappers that understand completely.
As one that cares for the golf first and foremost but also realizes that there will be clubhouses and other club facilities that do not benefit golf, my main concern is that they remain in check.  The purpose of my post was to see how many thought that we were getting out of sync in this department.  I think we are.  I am for tennis and swimming , food and golf but excessivve clubhouse plants will require too much of the monthly dues structure to not take away from golf. Just my opinion.

[Mike_Trenham]

I have a friend that says everything today is about the "experience".

Take the new sports stadiums, look at the food, the suites, at an NBA game every break there is some added entertainment on the court or on the video screens.  If you really love going to a game these new stadiums add very little but very good sitelines.

Take little league baseball, I drove by a field to night absolutely amazing looked like something appropriate for a small college.  The entire field was fenced and a few of the parents were raking the perfectly shaped infield.  Does this really make kids want to play ball, I bet they don't allow pick-up games as that would ruin the fields (irrronic isn't it)

Take college dormitories and facilities in general.  There is an absolute arms race taking place on campus nationwide.  This and lack of state funding is why tuition rates are outpacing inflation it is not the falculty salaries.  The facilites at my graduate school are absolutely amazing but much of it adds zero to the education process.

Take hotel rooms.  How many hotels were suites years ago?  Now they are dime a dozen coupled with extensive amenities.  Give me a good bed, a decent shower, ESPN and highspeed internet.

Unfortunately your fellow members want all of the same for their golf experience, they would probably love a caddie in a white jumpsuit.  

[cary lichtenstein]

Mike Young:

You are correct, so sorry

Cary

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

I'm not so sure that Mike Young is correct.

A 24 or 39 handicap can't relate to the play of a zero handicap, but, most zero handicaps were at one time, 39 or 24 handicaps, and unless their memories have shorted out, can relate to the play of the higher handicaps.

Many higher handicaps never see the design intent of the golf course, and due to their difficulty in playing it, seek to make it more fair for their particular game.

Comments like, lower the rough, fill in those bunkers, flatten that green, let's plant more flowers around the tees and greens and pipe that creek almost universally come from higher handicaps, who want the challenge of the game diminished so that they can better navigate the golf course, producing a better score for themselves.

But, my observations are only based on forty (40) years of serving on green committees at a number of clubs.

[Mike_Young]

OK Pat both are correct.  I am saying there are many guys at clubs that I see who at one time were low handicappers...they grow older and become higher handicappers .....And they are not listened to by many of the younger members that are now running their club.  I agree that many high handicappers cannot relate to a low handicappers game and vice versa and yes there will be the complaints regarding course conditions as too extreme.  But all of that can be worked around much easier if clubhouse and its requirements are kept in check.  IMHO people still pay the initiation fees for the golf more than the clubhouse in mst cases only to find out later what a drag it can be.

[michael j fay]

The difference is not the 24 or 39 handicap.

There are golfers, all of the participants on this website are golfers and people who play golf.

People who play golf are much more interested in the social amenities in a Club. The golfers are interested in playing golf.

Those who play golf usually outnumber the golfers four to one at your average club. In the few instances where the golfers outnumber the people who play golf the Club is usually run in such a manner that the services provided are easily covered financially by the players.

Country Clubs have become too much about the add-ons and frills. It is usually chalked up to marketing. It wastes the members money and creates a monster that is very difficult to keep down. Once an amenity is introduced the people who play golf begin to believe that it is a necessary and entitled amenity, regardless of the cost.

The golfer sees that the new amenities start to erode the financial support for the most important asset, THE GOLF COURSE.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Young,

I'm not saying that low handicappers don't have tunnel vision, but, I do believe that most are serious golfers, concerned about the golf course.

I believe a green committee of one would be ideal, with the right person in that position, but, that's the hard part, choosing the most qualified candidate, not the most politically expedient candidate, or stacking the committee with every faction in the club.

Mike Fay,

It's true, once in place, frills are hard to eliminate, and the continued erosion of the focus on the golf course continues with yet another diversion.

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I do agree that most low handicappers are concerned over the course and conditions but in most cases they know just enough to be dangerous.  Ours thinks tight fairways, long rough and more length will take care of everything.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Young,

This is why young children and misquided adults should be prohibited from watching certain TV programs.

[Mike_Young]

Pat.  We agree.
How long do you think it will be before the majority of golfers dress as Chas Howell and Jaacobseen.  Not long IMHO.

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