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SJ_McCarthy

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2004, 05:16:13 PM »
Pat,

I think you should re-read what I wrote.  My point was precisley what you read into it.  Contradiction.  To put it is simply as possible, many committies THINK they know the necessary things to justify their positions and/or place on boards or committies, RATHER, what typically ends up happening is these same people end up DOING what is in THEIR best interest instead of whats best for the course, the general membership and the budget (last one is key).

As far as my acceptance of it, correct, I dislike it immensly.  I have witnessed too many times what a "panel of experts (green committie) end up doing that inversly affects the course and club.  Clearly the best choice is a Benevolant Dictatorship, one voice, one vision one result.

SJMcCarthy,

I've always advocated dictatorships, but, they're the exception, not the rule and difficult to create in today's club environment.

In your second paragraph you agree with me, then seem to contradict yourself in your third paragraph.

Many green committees are formulated with the intent to represent the vast cross section of the membership, so that each segment has its representation and say.
Seeds for disaster in my opinion.

I think we're on the same wave length, you just might not be as accepting as I am of the situation.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2004, 06:01:05 PM »
You better hope you get a talented dictator, forget the benevolent. All the dictators I have run across were ego guys with the wrong visions and produced poor products for tons of Money.

They all thought they were architects and were afraid to hire the talented ones.

Ditto with their selection of greens superintendents, they preferred guys they could control and intimidate.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

SJ_McCarthy

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2004, 07:15:43 PM »
Cary,

I would be interested to hear what clubs you are referring to.  Most (not all) of the "top clubs" have not only survived but prospered under this type of arrangement.  Notable clubs are PVGC,ANGC, Shinnecock, many Scottish & Irish clubs etc, etc, etc.

Would you care to explain further your point?

You better hope you get a talented dictator, forget the benevolent. All the dictators I have run across were ego guys with the wrong visions and produced poor products for tons of Money.

They all thought they were architects and were afraid to hire the talented ones.

Ditto with their selection of greens superintendents, they preferred guys they could control and intimidate.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2004, 07:33:12 PM »
TEP...most seriously ,a great idea , so good i want to skip to the meat ........how do it work ?

and less seriously , will this take valuable time away from the BOOK.........?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2004, 07:56:08 PM »
Cary,

You need to provide more, highly specific information with regard to the bunker in your question.

It's been my experience that dictators are usually hand picked and groomed by their predecessor, and as such, get the right education, training, experience and mentoring.

I'll take that fellow over a committee of politically expedient novices that rotate every 2-3 years, every time.

SJ McCarthy,

We agree.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 09:00:08 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2004, 07:56:52 PM »
MikeS:

Here's a real example of the type of thing I mean. As most know my club just went through a restoration with Gil Hanse. Our club had certainly never done a restoration before in its 85 year history and so none of us on that committee had done one. So what did we know about how to go about it? Not that much really except some of us had seemingly become actively proud of our Ross heritage and the primary point of our mission (written) was to restore and preserve our Ross heritage as best as we could given 75 years of change and evolution (by up to 6-7 architects and numerous green committees).

And I think everyone on the committee was into that goal but when you get into the nitty gritty of all the little things the people involved are concerned about that goal does not exactly stay front and center--at least it didn't with us!

That's the first thing I learned! I went into this whole thing pretty optimistic. In the end I learned that to get some of the things you really want you have to give--and most important you have to REALLY start to know where to give and where to get and the clever ways to accomplish that. (After a time we figured out how to factor in what we came to refer to as "the fudge factor").

That whole process can get pretty political but at our club I think it was done well and in the spirit of good compromise. And I learned a lot from Gil too, basically just by watching him. The way it happened with us was he presented us with a Master Plan of what he thought was best for the restoration of the golf course. Then over the next year or so and numerous meetings the committee went through Gil's Master Plan (with him, by the way--Gil came to an amazing amount of our meetings) and some things were dropped from his Master plan or somewhat changed. Dropping restoring our old "top shot" bunkers was clearly disappointing to Gil and some of us were sort of concerned he'd get upset and walk away---again, since none of us had done this kind of thing before.

At one point the committee chairman asked me to call Gil and ask him how far his plan could be taken apart before he really would walk away. He didn't exactly answer that but he did say that he expects all clubs to change things from his original presentation and that's just the way it goes. He did say though that if the club really massively changed his restoration plan at some point he would ask the club what they were hiring him for his advice for! Master Plans ain't exactly cheap either, so Gil's point is a good one in that respect alone!

So the committee over that time completed the restoration Master Plan and started to present it to the membership and that's when the dynamics began.

Some were curious about it, some didn't mind it but didn't see why it was necessary and a fairly large and diverse contingent took real umbrage for one reason or another and fought it hard. Some fought various details of it and even a few campaigned to kill the whole thing. A couple in particular got really aggressive and ocassionally things got personal. At that point we began to work through some compromises with some of those who really were against certain things and the committee had to consider those compromises, vote on them and in a number of cases sent the plan back to Gil to redraw. That was hard because some of those compromises were a bit out of the basic logic or our mission. Trees were the primary issue in most of those early compromises.

And after that cycle we finally presented the plan to the membership to get their sense of whether this was what they wanted and were willing to pay for.

At that presentation meeting to the memberhip in September we did make some mistakes in basically how to show respect for membership opinion but the sense of it seemed to be approval so the Board of Directors going on that sense voted to approve the plan and budget it but apparently they only voted to sort of approve it. But because of that September meeting the club also decided to create what they called "forums" and they scheduled four of them through that winter for the entire membership to come and question anything at all on the master plan.

That whole "forum" process was the most educational to me. The first three of them involved going through six holes at a time in as much detail as anyone wanted and the last forum involved a practice range change (that was my idea and really ran into a pocket of harsh resistance). The first forum was fully attended and the questions were numerous but our answers and explanations were really good, really logical and one could just see the positive effect happening before our eyes.

Every point of the plan that was seriously questioned by anyone was voted on right then and there but in retrospect we (the committee) basically won almost every vote to preserve what we were presenting and I really believe we won all those votes because it didn't take even those totally uneducated members in architecture more than about one hour to start to see the logic and commonsense in this type of restoration given the way we explained it to them.

The next meeting had about half the attendence and the third one very few. Obviously they must have felt they had their say and they could understand not only what we were doing but also the logic of the architecture! The fourth forum basically involving my range idea lost and was given up on the plan! What in effect that did was to probably make the restoration of Ross's 10th hole (the fairway corridor which is our range) impossible to ever do.

At that point the Board did formally approve and budget the restoration master plan and scheduled its implimentation. To my amazement though, those few who were really opposing some things wouldn't go away and they kept campaigning against it. Unfortunately, the committee went through one last review of those things those people were most against. That's when I think I really learned what sometimes needs to happen to constructively compromise. The 10th green (one that Coore said was one of the most interesting Maxwells he'd seen) was on the chopping block and I personally waved off a design idea of my own on #15 to save the 10th green!

And then we went into implimentation and now the first and by far the most important phase is over and done (green expansions, regrassing the greens, all the bunkers restored and some reworked or added or subtracted and a new redesign on the green-end of #7 and some fairway expansons and a lot of tree removal).

The first phase was in play last year and from what I can see it's a blow away success----there really doesn't seem to be a single complaint even from those who fought us so hard for so long. Basically everyone seems to love it.

The second and much smaller phase will happen this fall (tees and more fairway expansions and probalby some more tree work) and after that I hope we'll start to impliment the "Ideal Maintenance Meld" for GMGC that should start to become apparent in 2005 and after. But that process will probably be another haul, I suspect, and it will basically all be done inside our Green Committee. Talk about education--that'll be the ultimate test! If we can do that successfully, though, I expect the membership to be even happier than they'd ever imagined.

It was a really interesting process, although it is ongoing---an education in architecture, in construction and implimentation and the details of it but mostly it was an educaiton in how to deal with a membership and how not to. A couple of my architect friends told me before we did this what it'd be like but I didn't exactly listen to them. In retrospect it's incredible how accurate they were---and the amazing thing is they didn't even know my membership. That's precisely why I think collaboration amongst clubs is so important---club to club no matter what the culture or make up doing this type of thing and taking it successfully through any membership is very similar--much more so than I every would have suspected. Basically it's a real logic---it just has to be presented correctly!

I think most every regular contributor to this website which basically concentrates on classic courses and classic architectural principles would be just excellent on a committee putting together a really good restoration master plan.

But presenting it to a membership, going through the things one needs to go through on a green committee or master plan committee---well, that's a different matter altogether. I'm afraid that much of what I read on here in that regard, particularly the critical tenor of it regarding committees and members, that some of even our best and most knowledgeable contributors on here who have never been part of this type of committee process and consequently have little understanding of it and what it takes, could be a real disaster in that regard.

I'm sorry to say that but it's what I truly believe from being on here so long, and, again, that's another good reason I think a section on here called the "Green Committee" would be a great idea and a great education---BOTH WAYS.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2004, 09:23:17 PM by TEPaul »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2004, 08:37:36 PM »
Great stuff
Let's not forget that it is theoretically possible for a Greens Committee to actually improve a course. My local 9 hole has been improved fantastically by the current regime, granted it is a benign fascist one - the owner, but he's no architect and is doing a great job. Beaver Brook, Haydenville, MA. Never going to be a great course but is a much better one than it was 5 years ago..

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2004, 08:42:26 PM »
Lloyd,
There are plenty of courses I love to play that will never be GREAT courses, but I'll play them anyday!

I too am really happy to see Tom Paul want to start something like this also. Many of us can seem a bit threatening at times, but most of the time, we do come down to a rhyme for the reason. It also spurns me further to do more research to prove a point, and always, I find out more then I ever knew or things I was just completely wrong about!

Admission of this fault is the first step!  ::)

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2004, 10:54:15 PM »
Bunker question:

Let me ask my question in another way:

Should bunkers be maintained to avoid deep plugged lies in the face and moderate plugged lies in the flat spots?

If so, how so u do it?

With regard to my comments regarding greens committees, I'll leave those for a later date in person after 3 drinks ;D ;D ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2004, 10:04:50 AM »
cary,

Years ago, I wanted to test some bunkers at Admirals Cove for the explicit purpose of evaluating "plugging", in the faces and on the floors.  I would stand in the bunkers and throw balls into the faces and floors to determine the degree of plugging that each bunker would create.  At the time, few, if any balls plugged in the face.  Most impacted and rolled to the floor.

You cannot look at your question solely in the context of sand depth.

Particle size is a very important component.
Different particle sizes produce different results, so you need to examine the qualities of the sand you're using.

Rainfall, WIND and daily maintainance can also be a factor.

As is the angle of the face wall of the bunker and prevailing wind direction.

My memory is fuzzy without benefit of my notes, but I believe that a 2" face and a 4" floor were reasonable depths to reduce plugging.

But, there is no "ONE" answer.

You must examine the bunkers in question, analyze all of the factors, and come up with a prudent solution.

And then,  GOOD LUCK on selling it to the committee  ;D
« Last Edit: March 27, 2004, 10:06:50 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

TEPaul

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2004, 11:42:03 AM »
New bunker sanding seems to take about six months to settle down and compact properly which prevents plugging. There's an additional problem these days with bunker sand depths and that's the constant diligence that bunker-wol needs in relation to bunker sand depth. My feeling is any bunker-wol type product should be installed only on the faces where the ball is unlikely to remain and not on the floors where balls do come to rest. I'm afraid that maintenance practices with bunker sand over bunker-wol would need the constant and continous use of a ruler or something to measure the sand depth or it's just going to be an accident waiting to happen at any time in the future, particularly with hitting a bunker-wol pin.

Just ask Jamie Slonis about this problem---it happened to him and luckily he didn't break his wrist at a top Philly tournament which he happened to go on and win. He certainly wouldn't have done that if he'd injured himself as he nearly did. The problem was the sand depth over the bunker-wol was way too shallow and he hit the bunker-wol or a pin. You think it hurts to hit a ball really fat on zoysia---hitting bunker-wol or a pin probably feels like that extrapolated about ten times!

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2004, 07:58:49 PM »
too GREAT an idea to allow to be languishing on page one (as all before me have commented)....and the concept of somehow "archiving/indexing" the threads for future readers use, would be extremely helpful, imho.....GCA serves/has served  many purposes but the potential it has to "educate" ( as a general term)COULD be it's "gift to the future of the game"....

Calling on Ran.....

TEPaul

Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2004, 08:06:08 PM »
ScottW:

How would you imagine the best way to structure a "GREEN COMMITTEE" section on here to be?

I visualize the discussions (and hopefully easily accessed archives) on a section like this including both regular participants on here with Green committee members of clubs out there. I think this site does have real capacity to educate and research for green committees but let's not forget there are also a number of very fine golf analysts and such on here who also need an education in the ways green committees do work and must work in the real world!!

I view a section like this on here as very much a two way education which would be the best of all worlds.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 08:08:13 PM by TEPaul »

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2004, 08:52:01 PM »
Tom, after way toooo many hours at that 4 letter word that let's us enjoy the game we love, I'm incapable of helping with "structure". ;D

But, a few ideas to perhaps incorporate...certainly the "archive" aspect....a section containing all sorts( perhaps categorized) of relevant, pithy commentary which could be educational and/or inspirational or perhaps even confessional (how we drove the spike into the drooping willow in the dead of night) in nature....actual "case histories" both successful and soso and not very.....perhaps a "tips of the trade" section....or......

we certainly don't want to duplicate what might already be out there, in terms of "technical" etc....
perhaps the guiding creed could be along the lines of using the collective knowledge of GCA to elevate not only awareness of "good design" but "HOW TO ACCOMPLISH GOOD DESIGN"

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A "GREEN COMMITTEE" section On GOLFCLUBTLAS.com?!
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2004, 09:27:23 PM »
TEP ....park the car ,write the BOOK.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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