[Patrick_Mucci]

Garden City has Wide fairways, is not overly long, has short Par 5's, greens with little contour, although they do have some pitch, Everything is fair and right there in front of the golfer, so why is it so hard to shoot a low score on this course ??

What is it about the architecture, or architectural features that frustrates the ability to post a low score ??

[John_Conley]

As I remember it, the greens are all flat on a pitch.  Some run away from you (#10?) and others slant falling off to the right (#3) or left.  With adequate pace, greens like that can resist scoring on their own.

Moreover, it is par 73 - so a score of 3 under is still in the 70s.

[Ran Morrissett]

For all the same reasons that the Old Course at St. Andrews still plays tough, so does Garden City:

1. Greens that slope away and that have no back wall.

2. The fairway bunkers are relatively small in size and thus more penal than big modern bunkers where you can oft times be so far back from the lip that you can still reach the green.

3. As a true minimalist design, judgement of depth is very, very hard to achieve on an approach shot due to the lack of greenside framing and thus a member at GCGC has a great advantage over the majority of us.

4. Thanks to the tree removal, wind is once again a key factor as it sweeps across the Hempstead plain.

5. A superb Eden hole

6. Half par holes like 1,4, and 17 where a double bogey lurks just as easily as a birdie. Like the 12th at St. Andrews, the big hitters of today can't help but give such holes a go...and that's when the fun starts.

7. A truly wild drive can be severely punished in some thick, tough stuff.

8. The severe pitch of such greens as 4 and 15 will always keep a man honest.

9. The aerial game still hasn't diminished how the golfer must use the area around such greens as the 16th to work a ball close.

Cheers,

PS Unfortunately, it also plays hard because of the mongrel 12th green but I'm sure that is being fixed soon.

[Tom_Doak]

The short version:

1.  The rough is very tough if you hit a wayward tee shot.

2.  Because of the tilt of the greens, it's always hard to get close enough to make a birdie or to save a par, and there is always the chance of a three-putt.

3.  The people who aim to use the sideslope of a green [say, 15], and then pull it a little too far, are doomed to make their share of bogeys.  Most would be better off just playing for the middle of the green and then winding up below the hole if the slope carries them away -- the CATCH-22 that also makes The Old Course so compelling.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran and Tom,

One insidious feature is the third fairway, which is very wide, but pitching from a high point right to a low point left, yet the green, pitches in the opposite direction.

The tendency is to draw the ball off that lie, causing one to end up above the pin, leading to three putts or worse.  And... if one should miss the green, saving par or bogey is difficult.

[dick_cesana]

I have never played Garden City but if you invite me I will gladley give you my opion,I will even bring the ballerina.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

What are Garden City's shortcomings (i.e. why do you "only" give it an ?

I will never be a huge fan of the 17th, though any border hole can create great swings in fortune. And of course the 12th until you restore it but after that, the course seems bullet proof, much in the same consistent manner as Pinehurst No. 2 and Muirfield, which you give 10s.

Also, relative to Muirfield, Garden City's standout holes (1, 2, 10, 11, 15, 16, and 18)seem more diverse and unique than Muirfield's equivalent (8, 9, 13, 17, 18, and whatever other two holes you wish to pick). Plus, the remaining holes at Garden City such as the 3rd or 8th or the tempting 4th seem to be of the same high standard as those remaining ones at Muirfield.

Hence, my question.

[Mark_Fine]

Plain and simple - The Rough!  Garden City has some of the healthiest rough I've ever seen.  Makes U.S. Open rough look tame.  Hit it in there and your goal is to just make contact and get it back to the fairway.  

Knowing the penalty for missing a fairway or a green puts extra pressure on every shot.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The fairways are 50-60 yards wide, so the high rough, which has been softened, is only a factor to a ball that is way, way off line.

Last Wednesday, I hit every fairway but # 17,
Yet my score was not what I would have expected.

Tom Doak,

I think it is difficult to get close to the pins, and on the proper side, especially with the afternoon winds.

Ran,

You ask an excellent question, and I'm anxious to hear Tom Doak's answer.

Add to that question, this one:
What would it take to make GCGC a ten (10) ?

[David_Graves]

Pat Mucci,
I have only played it once but Who is counting? The place is as close to perfection as anyone could expect. I am afraid any effort to get it to "10" might result in a five.Forget the rankings--Leave a sleeping dog at rest.

[Ran Morrissett]

Pat, At that stratosphere, Garden City's weakness lies in its three shot holes. Unlike some of its one and two shotters, none of the par fives are truly "great" in a world class sense.

[David_Graves]

Ran,
Please define "worldclass". Are we only talking "untouchables", because all fives are that for me?

[Ran Morrissett]

David, Worldclass as defined by such holes as 13 at Augusta...6 at New South Wales GC...8 at Crystal Downs...4 at Bethpage...3 at Fenway...16 at Shinnecock...4 at Royal Melbourne West...14 at St. Andrews...2 at Royal Aberdeen, many of which are reachable by even a short hitter like me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I think # 4 is a very good and underrated par 5, with # 13 just a tad behind it.
Into the prevailing wind, # 17 isn't quite the pushover it is in a northwind, or no wind.

[David_Graves]

Ran,
Have you played # 16 at Roaring Gap? What do you think?

[Ran Morrissett]

David,

The 16th at Roaring Gap is a super cool hole and would be a welcome addition to any links course with its blind, dell-like green complex (the fact it is on top of a mountain is a mere technicality  ).

For Ross just to "find" this hole is pretty impressive. Trying to judge how to play/land your approach shot and then to climb the ridge and see how close you got is one of the great highlights of the course.

Cheers,

[Jim H]

What do the tour pros shoot when they breeze through Garden City?  But that's maybe not an accurate measure though.  A touring pro on a day off is usually not especially motivated.

Only if you send a half dozen mini-tour players out on Garden City over a few days time -with a cash gift on the line for the winner- would you know that it is "hard to shoot a low score on this course."

From what's written here, those guys might eat up the par-5's, rendering GC effectively a par of 69.

[Ran Morrissett]

Jim, Two of the courses most severe greens (4 and 13) are found on a couple of the par fives and a pro that "breezes" in and tries to force the issue on such holes will likely find himself in a spot that takes at least 3 to get down.

Pat, can non-members show up and go watch the players during the Travis? That would be fun to watch.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

I'll find out, I believe that people who have a tie in, can come watch.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Ive been asking this question for years. I think the answer is you have to play the ball along the ground in oder to play well, when need be. Most players are reluctant to do so when they play at GC.

Last time I played I was coming off alot of golf on slow bermuda, basically flying everything to the hole, approach, pitch, chip etc. Si when I got out to GC I kept playing aerial shots. Got in trouble on 5,6, 10 for example when hitting a shot in the air when I really should have been playing it on the ground. I was playing with someone who plays much golf there than anyone. He had me 3 down and I was saying to myself whats going on here? He was playing it on the ground basically.

So punch shots, bump and run whatever, this is the key, I believe.

Now that theres been sometime since the initial post I think it would be interesting to hear some responses.

[JESII]

Clearly Patrick would not have posted this thread today. I am certain the golf course has gotten tremendously easier over the 5 years since he thought it was so difficult simply because just this summer he shot 4 under par 69 in competition at GCGC. At Patrick's significantly advanced age it seems incredibly unlikely for this to occur and scientific explanations are forthcoming. For the rest of us I am sure the course is loaded, but for senile Pat Mucci there must be some other worldly reasoning.

[TEPaul]

"For the rest of us I am sure the course is loaded, but for senile Pat Mucci there must be some other worldly reasoning."

There is some otherworldly reason and reasoning that most of us don't understand. As Ken Venturi used to say: "You have to have been there."  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

During the summer, GCGC is the third hardest course in Garden City.  During the Travis, it plays hard because the pins are set in really tough spots and there is usually a decent amount of wind.  However, the narrow fairways of GCCC and Cherry Valley with their standard 5 inch rough are tougher challenges.  Unfortunately for GCGC, they also have the greens condition that GCGC strives to achieve.  GCGC is an awesome, great course, but not as tough as several other Long Island courses.

[JESII]

Clearly Robert, hell Pat Mucci shot 69 this summer. How much easier would you say it is today compared to 2001 when Pat began this thread asking the question? 10 shots? maybe 12?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I did not play GCGC this past summer, but have played it over 50 times over the years.  It's difficulty is the fescue, firm and fast greens, and wind.  It's neighbors tend to have all three and much narrower fairways.  GCCC might have the second best green complexes in Nassau county.

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