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GeoffreyC

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2000, 08:31:00 PM »
Tom M - Tillinghast's sahara bunkers were always very strategic as is the cross bunker used at #4 on Bethpage Black.  They forced you to hit the fairway on the par five or be faced with a difficult to impossible second shot across the sand.  A layup usually left you a sufficiently long third that par becomes a problem.  This is a great use of huge expanses of sand.

I also think that "eye candy" is not necessarily a negative.  Certainly from a maintenance standpoint it raises costs, however, would you rather have eye candy or eye sore?  I think those rough edged bunkers are beautiful.  Ron Kern- whoever your shaper is keep him for your future projects.  


Paul Drake

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2000, 09:48:00 AM »
Tom M, you might recognize this:

"MacKenzie on the other hand was allied with the strategic school. As an admirer of the Old Course, he believed that hazards should 'be placed with an object in mind, and not one should be made which has not some influence on the line of play to the hole.' He believed that when a player confronts a hazard two things are essential, there must be a alternative route for those unwilling to take the risk and there must be a definite advantage gained when the hazard is carried successfully. Not that he was opposed to using sand, Cypress Point and Royal Melbourne are covered with beautifully sprawling bunkers that the Doctor was famous for. There were those who thought he was talking out of both sides of his mouth and that his courses had a wealth of penal side bunkers, to which he replied 'the only one that has is Cypress Point and these are all natural sand dunes made by another fellow, not myself.'"

Mr. MacKenzie,is Purgatory GC near to Mullen, Nebraska?

I would have liked to meet the bunker finish crew, and cross examine them and view their square point shovels, especially if the site was Indiana clay.  I think that(those) shaper(s)has(have) certainly increased his(their) fee.  Congrats to all, sandy or no sandy soil in-situ.


john f

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
When I posted above I used the term eye-cand. Obviously the closer bunkers are out of play, but paint a pleasent scene. If the green has a false front dropping into a bunker, that's a hell of a strategic placement. There is pleanty of eye candy around the golf courses. Are bunkers out of play eye candy? If done right and help frame your scene, yes. Smyers has done this. I'm not talking if their needed, but they offer a different, striking look.

Eye candy isnt a negative. having to pay the maintence crew overtime to fix all of these bunkers after a downpour is a nagative.


T_MacWood

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2000, 11:46:00 AM »
Paul
I see you have run into a brickwall, I was hoping you would share with us what you have uncovered and give us insite into your theories on eye-candy. Your last licorice-laced definition would have incorporated Royal Melbourne, SF, Seminole, Cypress Point, Riviera, Banff and Pasatiempo into your eye-candy world. Since your having difficulty explaining the inconsistencies, you are wise to change the subject to the penal school vs the strategic school dilemna. On the other hand, maybe you are trying to tell us something and are having difficulty putting into words, I don't know.

Yes, I recognize those comments, explain to me how this hole is inconsistent with those remarks. Here are couple of different angles to help illustrate your point.
http://www.purgatorygolf.com/images/holes/17grn99.jpg
http://www.purgatorygolf.com/images/holes/17airfx.jpg

And while your at it, give us your definition of eye-candy that doesn't condemn half the 'great' courses in the world.  

No this course is no where near Mullen -- but neither is the original Moortown, Alwoodley, Pasatiempo, Meadow or Valley Club -- and I don't here anyone complaining about the bunkering of these inland courses.


Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2000, 01:09:00 PM »
"I suggest that the construction of bunkers
on various courses should have an indivi-
duality entirely of their own which arouse
the love or hatred of intelligent golfers."

C.B. McDonald 1928


Mike_Rewinski

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2000, 03:18:00 PM »
T.E. and Steve, I too have enjoyed the enclosed, isolated feeling. I was very unhappy when The National began cutting back their tree and brush lines. I had grown up with them and couldn't picture the course any other way. Needless to say the after I got used to the new look I really liked it. I have also liked the effect that the clearing at Shinnecock and Fisher's Island has produced. It is very hard to know what some clearing would do to Pine Valley. Just what would you see if you thinned, cleared or cut back some of the woodland?  

APBernstein

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2000, 03:37:00 PM »
TEPaul

After having looked at the original aerial shots of PVGC, I noticed that the trees right of 13, as you said, have always been therefore should not be removed - It really does present a good strategic choice off the tee

However. my big peeve with the course are the trees on #14 which is just a bland hole in my mind - If they could thin out those trees and expose some of the sand under all that pine straw then we would be talking!

Andrew


Tommy_Naccarato

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2000, 05:04:00 PM »
Andrew,
A bland hole at Pine Valley?

TEPaul

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2000, 07:12:00 PM »
Mike Rewinski:

Very interesting what you say about the courses you mention. I sure don't know NGLA, Shinnecock or even Fisher's like you do but I can't imagine NGLA better tree-wise than it is now. Shinnecock I know less well but My God I can see where trees once were and the way it is now is just perfect. No trees get into the golf and the presence of the trees is still very much felt on the peripheries.

Pine Valley is a more difficult one to visualize and I think the club is wise in its go slow tree clearing process, but at least they have one. If you really think through the holes there aren't really that many to work on. Personally I wish they would keep clearing up the left side of #2 to the green to flow with what they have done in the old bunker area on the left on that hole. It would really have to be studied but how world class amazing would #2 be with a skyline green from the approach area? A little bit more on both sides of #5 would be even more intimidating and if I was the owner of the house on the left I would not object to a little more approach and green left clearing (the house wouldn't be noticed from the course). #9 a little on the right for more angles into the right green. To return the left green to skyline would be a complicated matter involving a lot of trees on both sides not to look strange. #10 I wouldn't touch. #11 could use a ton of tree work, particularly on the right. #12 with a ton of removal on the left would really shine. #14 is a difficult one to visualize with all that's around it at the green end if there were no trees (sorry Geoff and Andrew). #15, yes indeedy, there are things out there on the sides that would reappear. #16 is a good case study in trees and strategic architecture. Being a short driver I'm out on the left of the fairway more than most and from out there the approach is a long swinging draw to get around the trees on the left and running onto the green. Missing right and I'm either in the pond or short right of the green with a difficult approach. If I have to whimp out on a great driving hole like this one I wouldn't feel right to have a straight shot down to the green even with the bunkering short and left of the green. #16 is a hole that I think the trees on the left down near the green end do a lot strategically. #16 and #17 are close to each other and even down that far you wouldn't want to see players on the next hole.  #17, God could that be cool! There is a real live strategic option that is hidden out there on the right side amongst the trees.

If all that were ever done the Valley would in no way whatsoever lose any of it's isolated hole feeling. The Valley is lucky that it has the property on the course and a great routing and triangulation of holes by Crump, because if they wanted to they could have the best of both worlds tree-wise.


Ol Hairyback

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2000, 03:23:00 AM »
Its quite funny to see the support and admiration this hole gets from many of the avowed minamilists on this site. The hole is about as minamilist as Perry Dye giving it his best with half a dozen D6's on some mountain top in Japan!

But because the bunkers all have that arty crumpled look so beloved and in fashion at the moment (I like the bunker style myself)it rates as a good hole among the traditionalists here. What about the playability and strategic merits of the hole. Put it this way, what would be the reaction here if all the bunkers were bland ameoba's or round bunkers. I am sure then not only would the comments be on the poor aesthetics of the hole, but also on the lack of strategic merit/options and overly penal nature of the hole. But because it "looks good" this is overlooked.

In my opinion, this is just another of a long line of modern holes that are hard as hell for the high handicapper and reasonable for a good golfer. It would play quicker if you substituted all those bunkers for one lake (but then would not be minamilist and would not find favour here).

Disclaimer - I have not played the course or hole in question and am basing my review upon the photo submitted. If in doubt about this advise please consult C&C or Doak.


T_MacWood

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2000, 05:32:00 AM »
I like the 'look' of these bunkers. The irregular edging contrasted with the fescue is striking. That being said, I agree with Steve Curry assessment that they appeared too organized and would benefit from allowing the fescue to bleed into the sand. I'd also like to see the introduction of some other ground cover, maybe some weeds here and there, the fescue just looks too consistent. Those changes would help soften the look, the bunkers themself have a very natural appearance, almost too natural and clean, the introduction of encroaching vegetation would help give a less constructed appearance. Without the softening there is just too much going on. However these bunkers are a huge improvement over a similarly placed water hazard or over a bunch of oval grass-rimmed bunkers.

As far as the strategy of the hole is concerned, it is difficult to comment without actually seeing or playing the hole. It does appear there is a choice, the direct line to the green surrounded by sand or a bail-out area to the left -- which appears to be a bowl backed by a grass covered mound. It is still a forced carry but that is also true with the 16th a Cypress Point.

When you think about it there a very few great par-3s that require significant choice or strategy. The 12th at ANGC, 7th at PBGL, 15th at Cypress Point, 17th at Sand Hills, 14th at Crystal Downs, 13th at Merion and the threes at PVGC, are all pretty much do or die. Even at the 11th at St.Andrews the golfer eventually has to ascend the steep slope when trying to avoid the bunkers. The most famous exception of a strategic par-3 is the redan and the many derivations of it.

My origanl reason for joining this conversation was the use of the term eye-candy and its negitive connotation as a superfluous feature. What seems to be eye-candy on a modern course is not eye-candy on a classic course. In my opinion bunkers can be strategic in nature without being obviously in play. They can play a strategic role as a target or as a directional marker (either to lead or mislead). Their role can be psychological, it is exciting to see your ball flying over a very intimidating bunker that really isn't in play -- the 10th at ANGC is an example. And if the bunkers are strategic or psychological in nature, what is wrong with them being attractive or aesthetically pleasing. I think one of the reason that the NGLA stands out above all other Macdonald/Raynor works is because the bunkering is more natural, more artistic and less geometric. And what wrong with a 'look', MacKenzie courses have a look, as do Thompson courses, as do Thomas course, as do Raynor courses. The problem is when you have a 'look' without any apparent strategy.

I define eye-candy as bunkers that do not have to be negotiated in any way, they are not used to penalize, they do not force decissions, they are not directional and they are out of the direct line of play and therefore can not give pleasurable excitement in being carried. They are meant only to frame the picture.

As far as minimalism is concerned, if it means minimal use of hazards, I am not a minimalist. My definition of minimalism is to maximize the use of the natural features of a site -- minimize earth movement. And some sites are obviously better suited for minimalism than others. If it is defined as minimal use of hazards then Cypress Point, Pine Valley, NGLA and even Sand Hills would not qualify.


Tommy_Naccarato

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2000, 07:58:00 AM »
Ol' Hairyback, you ol' fishslapper you!

You aren't getting defensive now are you?

First off, judging by the natural terrain, the whole site looks to be very subtle and without a lot of movement. (maybe Ron Kern could add about that)

Is the hole pretty? Not in Augusta terms and I really like that part as a lake as you have issued in comparison would be something that normal, (yawn) golf design would embrace for a lesser known glf architect working in the midwest.  Here, it seems Mr. Kern took a chance and studied a lot of MacKenzie-prescribed (I'm going to start using that term because even if Mac liked it, it would go against his theories on naturalness by saying, "MacKenzie-like")and came up with some pretty naturall looking shapes.

Yes, to probably answer your next question, I do think this looks good "for me."

And while I have mentioned that it is hard to see wha the undulationand contour of the green is like, I can assume since this is a reasonably mid-length hole, that there is some interesting contour to it.

Is it punishing to a high-handicapper?  Well, I can only say that the strategy for a high-handicapper is to strike the fear of God in him and pull out a little more club, if he doesn't want to end up making sand castles short of the green.

But in the thinking that this is a seventeenth hole, I'm sure that there is some expectation of challenge for the low-handicapper, especially if the course is going to be used in matches.

The thing that is impressive to me is that it is refreshing to see an architect from the "Society" experiment with something that might be of creative bent that many "Society" architects are not accustomed to. (I'm not going to start naming names)


Jim Hoskins

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2000, 10:42:00 AM »
 http://www.golfopinions.com/bp18_tee.jpg

Here's a pic or link to a picture of some Tillinghast "eye-candy" off the tee of the 18th at Bethpage Black.

Not sure if the browser is working for this post (am getting javascript error msgs. at the golfclubatlas site) so will be brief.  

I like this Tillinghast "eye-candy" better than the Ron Kerns 17th Hole par-3 Purgatory confection.  All levels of player, from good to bad, could reasonably be expected to find the expanse of bunker area pictures at the Black course.  Not so at the Purgatory 17th.


Mike_Cirba

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2000, 11:05:00 AM »
Jim,

The only problem with the pic is that it is not Tillie "eye candy", it's Rees Jones "eye candy", or as my friend BillV calls it "Reeses pieces"!

The original 18th at the Black looked nothing like this.  Yes, there was a cluster of bunkers down the left side, and some up near the green.  But I hardly think Tillie would have enjoyed those "drizzle" bunkers running down the hill from the green like melted ice cream from the top of the cone!  

Sometimes, something so sweet gets to be sickening.


Jim H

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2000, 11:32:00 AM »
Mike,

well, well, well, I'll be a s34 of & b$%_#

regardless of the form (whether you like it or not) of the Reeses Pieces, they are well situated to serve as realistic hazards for all players.  There's some function to them, not just the "pretty" form.


Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2000, 01:05:00 PM »
Why does the architect place bunkers a mere 30 or 40 yards off the tee? I don't get it.

Tommy_Naccarato

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2000, 01:37:00 PM »
Craig,
A long time ago, before we had Ely Callaway and Wally Uilein rescuing us from our lack of talent with far superior equipment, one of the more frequent shots in a golfers bag was called the "Topped-Shot."

Amateur architects from the southeast Pennsylvania region thought that the best way to punish one for a "Topped-shot" was to use a hazard right in front of a golfer.

These amateurs felt through theory that making a golfer pay a price for lack of commitment was a suitable punishment for the crime. Hence, a bunker just 20-30 yards off the tee. One of these amateurs, George Crump built a course called "Pine Valley" where it is sort of a celebration of the members to see a visiting golfer in misery as he shudders to see the terror of some of the carries off the tee.

Thankfully today, we have several golf architects that "Know-better" and realize this ruse. They trust us to hit the Superball....I mean golf ball as far as we can with our space-age, left over remanants from some B-2 Stealth Bomber, golf clubs.

Yes, this guy who wanted to try to give us golfers of today a scare off the tee, what was he thinking?


Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2000, 04:03:00 PM »
I'd like to give it a whack on this hole with my old hickory stick.

Sister Mary Elephant

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2000, 04:23:00 PM »
I would like to give you a whack on the hand with my old hickory ruler..........Shuttttt Upppppppp!!!!!!!

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2000, 04:38:00 PM »
Whatever you say, Sis! Had know idea you were a golfer!

Sister Mary Elephant

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2000, 05:34:00 PM »
And Craig, if you would have been listening to me in class instead of trying to constantly look up Mary Margaret O'Flanahan's parochial skirt, you would know the difference between "Know" and "No!"

Tommy_Naccarato

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2000, 05:54:00 PM »
I'm gogin to try a little experiment here. A GCA first.  Photo comparison of Kern's 17th @ Purgatory and__________ I will let you all guess who built this hole and silence from the one's who have played there or know it. (This especially means you Gib!)

While both of the holes are different, the theory is similar to some extent, one being flatter then the other and the shot of the green on the right is not nearly as hard as it looks.



Tommy_Naccarato

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2000, 05:57:00 PM »
The green on my other right! (The left one!)

Jim Hoskins

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2000, 07:01:00 PM »
Tommy,   thanks for posting the two side-by-side I mean top-and-bottom holes for comparison.  Put me down as a fan of the one on the bottom, and still a skeptic about Ron Kern's 17th Purgatory.  

The problem I have with 17 Purgatory, and to respond to your note of a few ago, it all seems too precious and over-wrought to me.  I assure you I'm just as capable as you and the next player of smothering or topping a 4, 5 or 6 iron off of a par three tee. And when I do I don't think there should be some little billowy white sand high maintenance picture perfect raked to high heaven state of the art bunker there 40 yards off the tee to accept my miscue.  There ought to be rugged scrub land, or 2 foot tall fescue, or preferably a medium sized ditch with stagnant water to devour such a horrendous golf shot. OK, granted no architect has the guts in this day and age to build a ditch with stagnant water, but the picture on the bottom in my opinion gets closer to the amount of thought that the golf architect should give to punishing the golfer who dribbles one 40 yards off a par-3 tee.  

Punish the golfer, severely if possible, but don't give it so much dang thought, as Ron Kern seems to have done 40 yards off the tee at his #17.  


T_MacWood

Good Bunkering or Over-Kill?
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2000, 07:37:00 PM »
A very interesting comparison.

Top photo - MacKenzie influenced

Bottom photo - PVGC influenced


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