[Jeff Reel]

Wondering what everyone here thinks of this hole... do you consider such bunkering a good design element or over-kill?  One thing to keep in mind, this hole is a par 3.

Regards,

Jeff

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I feel like I'm walking into a trap.

Judging from the picture
I think it looks to be a hole with not alot of strategy but some very good looking bunkering. In one of Geoff Shackleford's earlier article's from Golfdom this year on up and coming architects, I saw pictures of very similar bunker work from Ron Kern, or if I would have another stab at it and say it could also be Steve Smyers.

Yes, I like the hole. especially the little false front on the right.  It is hard to see the contours of the green, but I assume that it most have some interest and doesn't look too flat.

Yes, I would play this course and probably enjoy it for the fact that there is an architect out there studying MacKenzie.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

I take it this is Kern's Purgatory GC? Well, it is overkill, but the bunkering is awfully good and the use of the fescue grasses is a nice touch too. At least he's trying to create something interesting and there isn't a politically correct opening between the sand "for the average player." Ugh.

Ron and his crew certainly show a lot of uh, dare I use the word, potential. I don't know how the strategy works on the course, but they definitely have a firm grasp on irregularity and character with their bunker edge designs.

And Jeff, great photography too!

[Paul Turner]

It reminds me of Steve Smyers too: Chart Hills near London has loads of bunkers that don't come into play or add strategy.  I think it is "over the top", eventhough it looks quite attractive.

[GeoffreyC]

I think Tommy's observations are right on.  In addition I like the fact that there are no trees anywhere near the line of play and the horizon makes depth perception difficult.

Jeff, you did not give the yardage for this hole.  The green also looks a bit shallow so I think it would work well as a mid length hole.

In fact, the bunkers look exactly like those done by Roger Rulewich (with RTJ) at Metedeconk CC in Jackson NJ which I had the pleasure of playing recently.  I was very pleasantly surprised at the great shaping done on that course and this one looks equally artistic.

The qu  estion of overkill is subjective.  I would not want to be on the maintenance crew that rakes them all on a daily basis but they are nice eye candy.

[Jeff Reel]

Here's the yardage on the hole:

Tips: 173 yards
Middle: 145

Geoff S. is correct, it is Kern's Purgatory (what's with that name?).  I too really love the look of the bunkers but honestly wanted people's opinion on their apparent over abundance... not a trap Tommy    My question for the sups here is whether all these bunkers increase or decrease maintenance costs?  Another question I have is whether people think bunkers running from tee to green on a par 3 messes with people's depth perception?

Paul T: I've played both Chart Hills and Smyers' Southern Dunes in Orlando and he too seems to go over-board with his bunkering (although I like the look).  There's a par 3 at Southern Dunes where a bunker is actually placed next to a tee box (to the side of the tee box, not in front of it).

Anyway, I stumbled across photos of the course and was quite impressed with the bunker shapes.  Has anyone here played the course?

Regards,

Jeff

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff,
Now I can breath easier! Whew! I thought for sure that this whole deal was going to be a trap to show my ineptitude on golf architecture.

Not bad on the judging of this being a Kern course, eh?

[Ran Morrissett]

Overkill, and there is no excuse for it.

Kern is obviously proud of his jagged edge bunkers and fescue (and rightfully so, they do look great) but does he have to hit us over the head with them? Give me a break.

Thankfully, Sand Hills wasn't ruined by such eye-candy.

"Restraint" is a word that has all but disappeared from the modern architect's venacular, and this is another example of a good idea, overdone.

Such a course/setting should have a more timeless appearance but this bunkering sadly dates the course to present times.

Cheers,

[Wayne_Tucker]

Woo hoo! It's Rulewich and RTJ on steriods.. just kidding.. this is still cool looking.

I personally love a heavily bunkered course, and some of the holes at Purgatory's website(3,4,6,10,14,15 and 16) look absolutely stunning.  Also, he's used the native grasses VERY nicely.

By the way, can you guys imagine what the course rating and slope of this course is from the tips? Yikes.

[Wayne_Tucker]

Oh, the original point of the post was whether or not the bunkering was overdone. Yes, absolutely.  

I couldn't tell you how many bunkers to get rid of as I've never played or walked around the course. But it just looks to me like some of the bunkers serve as visual distraction, and not to improve the esthetics of the course or make the course more strategical.

There are a couple holes on the course where the bunkering seems to be just right, and then others where it looks completely overcooked (17 and 18 look ridiculous imho)

[Tom_Doak]

There is a fine line between excitement and over-kill, and I'm amazed that so many architects today can cross that line so easily.

One question: does that false front on the green drain directly into the bunker like it looks?  That would be interesting, but a real maintenance headache.

[Jim Hoskins]

The triumph of form over function and substance. That's how it strikes me.

This is not meant as overly negative --it's a pretty picture, everything balances out well for the eye and has been constructed with obvious expertise-- but if the whole course was like this (lots and lots of sand, that if you remove you find mundane golf holes) I'd have to say someone had cleverly turned a 38 dollar greenfee course into a reason for chumps to dig deep in their pockets and shell out $85+.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

See, this is where I go off the deep end.

I'm sorry to say that I could enjoy the bunkers just as much if they were just left alone with some minimal maintanence once a month or so.

No rakes, only the golfer to sort of brush his tracks similar to "the Valley."

Yes, I'm sure if it was in the middle of an Indiana downpour, that front would get really ugly.

Looking at some of the other holes in the layout and pictures on the website, I have to say that it looks to be as a great efort from a society member that is really trying hard to embrace our purist views.

For that I congratulate him.

[Steve_Curry]

Tommy,  PV fixes its washouts regularly, the DA nearly every time it rains.  You can't just let bunkers be for the most part as problems can affect other features.  Don't get me wrong though, I agree that less is better.
Steve

[Craig_Rokke]

Bring a beach towel and some #15 lotion! They look good, but a bit too much of it for my liking.

[Ken_Cotner]

Breaking my personal policy of not commenting on a course I have not played, nor even seen...

Obvious negatives: many of the bunkers only come into play for the higher-handicap player, and there is no room for the ground game.

BUT, the mass of bunkers does appear to eliminate the standard "framed" look, possibly adding to the depth perception problem.

KC

[Eric Johnson]

Great picture.  Lots of labor if raking on a daily basis, let alone "touch up" raking.  Is it me or is the tee lined up to the left of the green complex?  

Eric Johnson

[Jeff Reel]

Would anyone, who hasn't visited their web-site, like to take a guess at what this hole is named??  

There's some irony to it, and it's a familiar name.

[Jim Hoskins]

OK Jeff!  I won't spoil by giving the name away.  I visited the website, and got a taste for the whole course.

This par-3 hole is the 17th. I think it might be an 'impact hole' or the 'signature hole' at Purgatory.  The other holes on the course are more low key.  Tommy is right.  It does look like it is a very good course that would be fun to play, by an architect espousing some excellent ideals and philosophy in his personal statement.

Overall from the photos, I think he got carried away with excessive bunkering.  That is my opinion from the photos.  Less would have been more.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Steve,
I understand completely about the washouts, I was refering more to natural looking erosion similar to Sand Hills, PV, the ones they used to have at Merion, which are probably gone as of this writing, etc,

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy,

The last time I was at Pine Valley, it was in the morning after a heavy overnight rain, and there was a guy in a backhoe filling a 3-foot-deep washout in front of the second green.  He said he did it every time it rains.

At Sand Hills, they have had to bring in three feet of sand on some of the bunkers after the winter winds get on them.

Raked every day or not, bunkers like that are a lot of work.

[BillV]

A late comment, the picture at first made me think of Smyers, but I actually like his bunkering a little better.  These in this piture are nice but clearly too much.

For those that have seen Royce Brook West, the first and 9th holes have a cluster of very attractive Mackenzie like bunkers between them, just marginaly over the top.  Much better than a signature waterfall, though.  Nowhere else on the course does he approach that over-do, so I can accept it as it is.  The website is www.roycebrook.com.

Recommended course, by the way.  There is really some good stuff there.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Quite obviously, I need to learn a lot!

[john f]

If I am playing the course, I love it. If I own it or need to maintain it, I would question it. I enjoy Smyers work and while some of the bunkers at Souther Dunes are eye candy, when you reach them it penal. Fairway bunkers at 2, 7,8 & 9 especilly.

Bill V - I was at Royce Brook this week, but did not get to play. Hit some balls and walked a little. Can't wait to get there and play. I loved the 18th green.

[T_MacWood]

I here the term eye-candy used often, when does a bunker become eye-candy? What is the definition of eye-candy?

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