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George Crump

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« on: October 07, 2000, 05:46:00 AM »
It doesn't demand the player have complete control over the trajectory of his shots.

St. Andrews and a course on Long Island called the National are better examples of asking the golfer to hit a high floater into one green and then a low chaser and then a five iron punch and then etc.

Too bad there are so few courses that truly call for trajectory control because such an ability is the sign of a truly gifted golfer, and he should be allowed to demonstrate/show off his unique talent.


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2000, 05:59:00 AM »
You're saying that the approach shots into  1, 4, 13 and 16 are good but perhaps not enough, eh?

GC

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2000, 06:18:00 AM »
Correct. As Macdonald would say, four holes is not ideal.

Tommy_Naccarato

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2000, 06:19:00 AM »
What about the trajectory of the approach on #2?

GC

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2000, 06:23:00 AM »
Given its length, it's a standard 7/8 iron up the hill, isn't it? Not many options that I can see.

Tommy_Naccarato

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2000, 06:26:00 AM »
And from the tee @#5?

For a weak player, hitting the ball PERFECTLY is the only possibly chance it has to reach the green surface. while he can risk a run-up, look how many shapes and contours of that rise will knock it off into Turtle Creek. (I had apicture of a turtle coming out of the creek, I don't know what I did with it.  Maybe I eventually had it and the turtle in my soup?)

A strong player can hit a much higher trajectory at will.

Also George, the trajectory of my shot into #10 was perfect. At least perfect for my tastes.


Tommy_Naccarato

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2000, 06:31:00 AM »
And yes, it was also a 7 or 8 iron.

I chose an 8. My rabid and non-humorous caddie felt it was a 7.

I was right. I put the ball exactly where I wanted to be!


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2001, 06:06:00 PM »
This thread got me thinking: sure, courses in windy locations will always demand that the better player control the trajectory of his shots but what inland designs ask a player to do the same (without wind being the driving reason)?

High Pointe once upon a time did before the soft conditions undermined the architect's intent; what are some other examples?


Punch'em Pete

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2001, 06:11:00 PM »
Just goes to show a 'golfer' needs all the shots.

Gib_Papazian

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2001, 09:47:00 PM »
Ran,
I think the approach areas at Garden City were a bit soft relative to the putting surfaces.

APBernstein

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2001, 05:52:00 AM »
Ran:

I can see you're not putting up much of a fight for Pine Valley.  Nonetheless, this is how I see it...

1st: The best opening hole that I have played to date.  Landing the ball a little short is ideal.

3rd: To get the ball all the way back to the back-left hole location, slinging a draw back there is probably the easiest shot.

4th: With the undulations in the green, you need to be pretty precise with how you hit this shot.  With the pin up from, you can run the ball up landing it 50 yards out.  With the pin in the back, a higher shot to the front of the green will allow it to catch the slope and trickly back to the hole.

6th: If your drive is left out to the left, a good low draw is needed to get to the back-left of the green.

8th: The best at Pine Valley as far as "controlling trajectory".  A low spinner can take one good bounce and check at the back while a higher shot can check quicker for front locations.

12th: This rivals the 8th in terms of what we are talking.  A low show can run through the length of the green while a higher shot must be precisely struck.

13th: Enough said.

16th: The low punch works perfectly here.

Fortunately, windy locales are not the end-all of course arhitecture.  Just because a course features wind does not make it automatically more pleasurable or desirable, as you seem to mention quite a bit in course write-ups.

Pine Valley is still the #1 golf course in the world, no questions asked.


CDJ

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2001, 07:34:00 AM »
Pine Valley's weakness? The correct post would've been... "My weakness as a course critic!"
If there was ever a course that you needed control of trajectory and shot shape...Pine Valley would be it. Please for the good of the game, change your post name from Mr. Crump to Joe Clueless.

TEPaul

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2001, 08:06:00 PM »
Can he at least call himself GEORGE Clueless?

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2001, 10:15:00 AM »
Andrew,

C.B. Macdonald disagreed with you.

To quote the great man, "Wind I consider the finest asset in golf; in itself it is one of the greatest and most delightful accompaniments in the game. Without wind your course is always the same but as the wind varies in velocity and from the various points of the compass, you not only have one course but you have many courses."

He goes on to say that no course can be ideal which is laid throuh trees as wind does not have a full play.

I agree with him.

Cheers,


APBernstein

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2001, 11:11:00 AM »
Ran:

I disagree with you both.  A lack of wind is hardly a weakness.


Aaron

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2001, 11:28:00 AM »
Andrew and Ran,
If lack of wind is not a weakness, what would a designer implement to make a course play different every day? I can see Macdonald's point about the wind making a course play different every day (or even in the midst of a round) but then what do designers do with courses in the woods to give that variety of play?

Aaron


herrstein@aol.com

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2001, 11:51:00 AM »
I think a constant, yet variable wind (from day to day) is the preferred way to add variability to a course's challenge.
There are other ways, though: if you will refrain from watering too often, the course can be made different simply by the firmness of the turf, by virtue of frequency and quantity of rain. So a well drained course, infrequently watered, will best take advantage of this variable, in the proper climate
Moving the position of the tee markers around helps some. That makes a course like Dye's Ocean Course stronger than most. They move them around and have a lot of options.
I like to think that the player who can control his trajectory at Black Creek, height as well as fade/draw, has a distinct advantage over the player who possesses only one predictable shape. In fact, I think that is the primary strength of the course over others I play.

APBernstein

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2001, 12:20:00 PM »
The key is the architecture of the golf course.  Raynor's double plateau green is a perfect example as to how a golf course can play differently on successive days.

I personally believe that too much stock is put into wind on this site.  While it may be a slight advantage to some courses, it is most certainly not a disadvantage to those inland courses.

I can't find the quote at this moment, but in one of the course write-ups, Ran states, and I am paraphrasing, "Golf on the coast is more desirable than inland golf."  Personally, I feel that a well-designed course should be able afford the variety that a player needs to keep interest in a course from day to day.


T_MacWood

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2001, 01:29:00 PM »
Andrew
You have misread both what Macdonald and Morrissett have said. The way I read it neither man said that a course lacking wind is neccessarily inferior, or a weak design. But that given two equal or identical golf courses, one with wind (Seaside), one without (Inland)--the course with the wind would be more interesting and ultimately superior. Its hard to argue with that logic, especially coming from two such experienced gentlemen--and I do use that term loosely.

APBernstein

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2001, 02:51:00 PM »
That is a big hypothetical, but I understand the logic.  This is what I am saying...

Wind may be able to break ties in the event that two identical courses exist.  However, I do not view wind as being able to propel a slightly lesser course in front of a better course.

Many people consider Pine Valley and St. Andrews (Old) as two of the top golf courses in the world.  I would consider Pine Valley the superior golf course of the two.  Suppose they were very closely rated together on my scale.  I would not feel that the windy locale that St. Andrews is located in would compensate for any type of gap, not even a small one.


Patrick_Mucci

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2001, 04:23:00 PM »
Andrew Bernstein,

One of the better double plateau holes in the world is the 11th at NGLA.

As good as the hole is, the wind magnify's its brilliance ten fold.

If you played the hole in a variety of wind conditions, direction and velocity, you might gain a new appreciation for the positive impact the wind can have on the play and architecture of a hole, especially this one.


Bill_Coggins

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2001, 04:53:00 AM »
While in general this Dog-pile-on-Andrew seems like fun, I do think it should be stated that wind can also ruin a course.

I have played too many oceanside courses where the wind is just a bear.  Making the round, quite a chore.  With these nice new grasses and green speeds of 11, .... What strategic design rule says it is fun to watch the wind blow a ball across the green, off the side and into a bunker?  How do I attack this hole, knowing that my bunker shot into the 6-club wind, should it end up on the green, will just be blown back to my feet.


TEPaul

Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2001, 05:44:00 AM »
If Pine Valley is inferior because it isn't seaside, happens to be in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey and therefore is not susceptible to wind and therefore inferior, then you can give me inferior every single day.

The only rap about trees that I buy into at Pine Valley and that Pine Valley has  sometimes been given is that over the years they have let trees grow around bunkering and some of the design intent of Crump's original architecture and therefore effect some of the more interesting recovery shot angles and even legitimate risk/reward shot angles! But they are taking major steps to correct that now!

I know what MacDonald and other early architects, particularly the Scotish immigrant architects said about the benefits and the interest of the unfettered wind on seaside and links style courses. But I also know what William Flynn said in written detail later about trees and their use and benefit in golf architecture. And William Flynn, judging from his incredibly strong career inventory wasn't some slouch designer!!

I'm also quite sure that if C.B. MacDonald and some of the other immigrant architects like Ross and Mackenzie were around today they would likely see some of the varietal benefits of golf courses that have used trees as an element of golf architecture. Simply check out the writings of another slouch designer, A.W. Tillinghast's "Course Beautiful" and the elaborate mention of how to use trees in golf design.

Again, this is in no way to imply that trees should be used on golf courses that were not designed for trees or to crowd out the design intent of a course that was designed for them with trees that don't belong where they were later put!

But to say that all courses (and very good ones) everywhere should have all their trees removed just to make them susceptible to the unfettered wind and that would therefore make them better is really dumb and nigh onto architectural blasphemy, in my opinion!

If you want a challenge you should try out Pine Valley in a strong and SWIRLING wind condition sometime. It's plenty difficult and challenging, I can promise you that.

Half the interest in golf architecture generally is the wide and interesting and challenging variety of sites and courses everywhere and trees play as much a part in that as do the open and treeless links, seaside or plain type sites and courses.

It's perplexing to constantly hear people who really know architecture seriously state that one type is superior and the other is inferior. They may personally prefer one type, but they shouldn't state that because of their preference that everything should be that way!

They're all interesting if designed and maintained correctly and the fact of the differences in style, type and playability is just more of what's interesting about golf architecture.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2001, 05:47:00 AM »
Would the wind situation at PV be any greater if there were fewer trees?

There are plenty on inland areas that are very windy - look at the areas in Nebraska & Kansas. Even here in the Burgh, it can be windy enough to affect the flight of a golf ball, as long as the course is not completely tree lined.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pine Valley's weakness? I'll tell you.
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2001, 06:31:00 AM »
I agree with Andrew that there seems to be an over-emphasis on the value of wind among this group.

It's is all a matter of degree. Some wind is good, too much is bad. I prefer no wind to a wind that is so strong that it becomes the dominant feature of the course. One weakness of Bandon Dunes (as an example) is that the wind varies dramatically from season to season and there was no way for the architect to create a design that was consistantly excellent year-round because of the differing wind conditions.

Who says a course has to play differently every day to be great, and that wind is essential to accomplish that goal? My home course varies significantly from day to day based almost solely on different pin placements.

Inland courses often have plenty wind, and trees only make the wind more difficult to read. ANGC in inland and tree-lined. The wind there is far more difficult to figure than the wind on a seaside, treeless course.

No amount of wind will ever make some of Ran's favorite seaside courses superior to Pine Valley. So there!

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

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