[John_Conley]

Another post got me thinking...

What is the hardest course you know of?  Don't offer up something that played tough with unusual conditions, just those that are tough every day.

I'm playing LAGOON LEGEND later this month, so I wondered how it compares.  Another that frequently gets mentioned is KO OLAU.  Ditto WOLF RUN.

Feel free to add what makes it hard.

I'll nominate EL CAMPEON at the Mission Inn in Howey-in-the-Hills, FL.  From the back tee, you need to work it both ways on the teeshot just to get in play.  Tall stands of trees line every fairway and the hills are severe.  Very challenging greens when you're near the slopes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Lighthouse Sound in Ocean City, MD, is the hardest course I've played in recent memory.  I am not sure who they thought they were building the course for.

The fact that a 15mph breeze is about as calm as it gets on the site should have been taken into greater consideration before building holes like the following...
http://www.lighthousesound.com/04.html
http://www.lighthousesound.com/05.html
http://www.lighthousesound.com/07.html
http://www.lighthousesound.com/09.html

[Ben C. Dewar]

In terms of hardest, I have played The Ocean Course (in low wind), PGA West TPC and Lionhead outside of Toronto and none of them compare to Koolau.

I understand they have revised the course a little bit to make it easier.  I found the course to be hard to the point of ridiculous.  I had shot 78 at the Prince course at Princeville a few days before, and I struggled to an 89 (from the back) at Koolau.  This was a few years ago, but I seem to remember that many of the fairways ran down and away, it was impossible to hold the fairway with anything less then a perfect tee shot.

[kilfara]

Carnoustie immediately comes to mind, for obvious reasons.

I played Blackwolf Run (River) and shot 88; the next day I played a decent Illinois muni (Prairie Vista in Bloomington) and shot 71. That's a pretty fair reflection of the difficulties of the former, I think.

My memories of Bonita Bay (Naples, FL) are somewhat sketchy, but I remember 10-yard-wide fairways with water on both sides, so it must have been pretty darn tough.  

The Shattuck (Jaffrey, NH) is rated as New Hampshire's #1 by Golf Digest, but I'm pretty sure you'd have to be a much better golfer than I am to truly enjoy its narrow fairways, marshlands, lakes, trees, etc.

These are a few contenders among the courses I've played which had at least SOME architectural merit. I'm sure many of us could also nominate other courses which were ridiculous and no more than 4s on the Doak Scale.

Cheers,
Darren

[Matt_Ward]

Try these on for size:

*The original Geronimo Course at Desert Mountain / Scottsdale, AZ. You must play absolutely first rate throughout. Most unique and toughest hole -- the 491-yard par-4 16th. Just stand on the back of this tee pad and you will be barfing up your brains! Even though Lyle Anderson has softened it somewhat (changes at the 13th hole and 14th) it's still a bear. Also enjoy the par-3 18th!
Also keep in mind the new Chiricuhua Course that Nicklaus also designed for Anderson.

*Whistling Straits. The Pete Dye gem on Lake Michigan. Played from the tips (7,200 yards) the course can be lengthened even further to take care of any equipment changes. Pete did the same type of thing at The Ocean Course at Kiawah. When the wind is blowing full speed The Ocean Course will take no prisoners period! The Straits may have the otughest collection of par-3's period -- none is weak and all have the possibility of emptying a golfer's bag of balls!!!

Colbert Hills / Manhattan, KS. Over 7500 yards from the tips and features the usual Midwest hard winds.

Bandon Dunes -- played from the tips at over 7,300 yards it is not for the meek. I defy anyone to list two tougher holes in a row then the 5th and 6th at Bandon --especially in the summer when they play into the wind. I don't even believe Tiger can reach the 5th when facing a steady headwind.

Honorable mention -- Purgatory GC in Noblesville, Indiana along with Wolf Run, Zionsville, Indiana are absolute terrors for those not hitting it pure.

Bulle Rock in Maryland is also another demanding course from Pete Dye.

I'd also mention Bethpage Black (US Open venue 2002) -- especially the back nine which requires constant superb play.

The courses I listed are in my mind FAIR courses. They are not gimmicked with trick landing areas or wetlands that creep in so that there are no landing areas. Or feature courses with putt-putt greens that no one can handle, or out-of-bounds on BOTH sides of the landing area / ditto water hazards that do the same thing.

[John_Conley]

Darren:

I love BONITA BAY.  The first course, later called MARSH when CREEKSIDE opened, is now cut in half.  The longer holes wound up on BAY ISLAND and the shorter (1-6) wound up on the new MARSH.  

BAY ISLAND is a brute.  Several forced carries and many long holes.  Lots of swamp.

ROYAL COUNTY DOWN is the hardest "great" course I've played.  You're a loser if you hit it in the whinns.

[Lou_Duran]

Seems like a lot of the new courses that I have played over the last couple of years could make the "toughest list".  I don't know if it is a function of changing architectural trends or a rapid decline of my game.  Here is my toughest five list.

1) AUSTIN COUNTRY CLUB (P. Dye), TX- the conbination of hill country topography, ackward angles of the tee, no places to miss, considerable length on a few very tight holes, frequent windy conditions, and the wild, treed, brushy areas often but a few yards from the fairways and greens.

2) RAM ROCK course at Horse Shoe Bay Resort (R. T. Jones), Marble Falls, TX- hill country terrain, wind, wild areas near fairways and greens leaving no place to miss, visually intimidating from the back tees, plays longer than the 6,900 yards because of fairway slopes and the way you have to play defensively off the tee.

3) THE JUDGE course on the Robert Trent Jones Trail at Capitol Hill (R. T. Jones), Montgomery, AL- nearly 7,800 from the back tees, some dramatic elevation changes, wind can be a factor, ball tends to run to trouble, large, plateaued (sp) greens, some holes have no safety zones.

4) CAMBRIAN RIDGE, Greenville, AL on the RTJ Trail (RTJ)- length (7,500+ yds), large elevation changes, cross bunkering at 250 - 270, lack of bail-out areas, large greens, multi-tiered greens).

5)  WATERWOOD NATL.(Roy Dye), Huntsville, TX- Greens angled ackwardly from the fairway requiring precise distance and direction, and surrounded by extremely difficult hazards.  Tree lined, well trapped, with water coming into play on several holes.  Scenic, but visually intimidating.  Forced, tight carries over considerable distances on a three or four holes.

Honorable Mention:

NORTHGATE CC, Houston, TX and PLAYACAR, Cancun, Mexico (both by Bob Von Hagge)- tight, intimidating, penal designs.  Northgate is 6,400 yds. and can be had, but it puts heavy pressure on every shot tee to green.  Playacar is carved out of the jungle, and it has length as well as ever present danger nearby.  

[NAF]

John,

It has the rep as being the world's highest slope...Koolau Golf Club on Oahu from the tips..I played from the next to tips tees and it still has 150 slope..jungle everywhere...lots of ravines to carry, big elevation changes..bring a machete and a lot of balls...cause you are going to lose a lot of them..

The 18th hole there from the tips is one of the hardest par 4s you will ever see...Thank Dick Nugent for building this course..It is would get the beauty plus bash your brains out award..

[Gary Albrecht]

I just talked to a friend who's played Koolau.  He said they inform golfers that they'll likely lose one ball per handicap stroke.  (That sounds low from what I've heard and read here.)  A foursome in front of him turned around after the 6th hole as they had run out of balls.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Winged Foot West in the spring, from the tips

Shinnecock from the tips, in the spring, with the wind up.

[THuckaby2]

So much depends on conditions... I'm a humble 5 handicap, and I shot 76 at RC Down on a very benign afternoon and 89 on a previous trip with the wind up... I played better in the 89 round!  Had a 92 in a gale at Dornoch that felt like a 72... So I think quantifying any of these links courses as tough just has to be taken in this light.  They can play tough or they can play TOUGH, you know?

I'd go with PGA West Stadium, from the tips.  Most fun I've ever had getting brutalized.  Everyone talks Koolau but if one plays by the rules, PGA West could be an infinite round for many players... the 255 par 3 over water might never get finished.

Maybe it's me, maybe it's because I only played it in competitive situations as a teenager in late 70's/early 80's, but damn I recall Riviera as very tough.  The scores the pros shoot there amaze me.  I know, it's a different course now... very sad.

But discussions of tough begin and end for me with Spyglass Hill.  That is one nasty bitch in any sort of competitive situation.

I am shuddering as I type this.  Adam Clayman, I know the Glass is just "home" for you but it makes me shiver.  Too many brutally high scores and humiliating defeats there for this lad.

TH

[SPB]

I concur with the earlier posting, that Bulle Rock is a demanding test of golf. Moreover, I would add Galloway National to the list as well. Played it a day removed from Pine Valley, and had an equally difficult time.

[John_Conley]

Tom:

I agree completely about the elements stuff when discussing links courses.  Ditto "U.S. Open setup".  Show me a course that isn't tough in a 40 mph wind or with narrow fairways, high rough, and hard greens.

We are not talking about conditions playing tough, but tough courses in all conditions.  I remember RCD having brutal trouble near some greens that were supposed to be hit with long approaches.  #4 is the par 3 with a whinns fairway and #8 a long par 4.

I didn't say it was the hardest anywhere, but for me, the hardest great course.  Some great courses are not real hard, like Pine Barrens at World Woods or St. Andrews.  I imagine Augusta isn't that hard either if the green speeds are at the national average, you sure won't get in much trouble with the ball striking.

[M.W._Burrows]

#1.  Shinnecock Hills with wind and rain.
#2. Winged Foot West any day of the year.
#3. Pine Valley...generous fairways but when you are in trouble, you really are in trouble!

[Frank_Pasquale]

I would say Whistling Straits, because I felt like I was under constant pressure to hit a great shot.  Very demanding, there was no breather at all.

Royal New Kent was also very difficult, maybe a little local knowledge would remedy that, but I felt completely defeated playing there.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Anybody who does not mention the Glass ie Spyglass has not played there. The same can be said for Carnoustie. hard courses that arte great courses are rare and these two are in the club.

[Ward_Peyronnin]

In the last year or so I have played some tough courses, many of the ones mentioned above. I agree that you have to factor weather into any assesment of a links course( even the usga rating system has a point category for this effect if consistently part of play as a factor on slope)
Down here in southern indiana The Victoria National track (depending upon tee location)certainly ranks as one of the toughest I've ever dragged this 6 handicap over. The average score for the Open qualifier here last year was 83 on a benign day at about 6600 yards.

[ed_getka]

Spyglass gets my vote. Although I think toughness is also a function of ones golf game. In my case driving the ball is my weakness, so playing a course like Spyglass makes it seem especially tough. Fortunately I was driving well the day I played there.

[David Wigler]

The Ocean Course at Kiawah in a walk.  I played in a Pro-Am four years ago.  We caught benign winds in the practice round and most golfers were fairly low (With my 7 handicap, I shot 81).  The wind kicked up hard for the tournament and the low pro was 76, the high 95.  I featured a smooth 101.  When the wind is blowing the course is a killer.

[John_Conley]

As we mention in some earlier posts, all courses play pretty tough under certain conditions.  I'm trying to hear which ones are tough without wind, rain, fire, biohazardous waste, unforeseen acts of God, etc...

[THuckaby2]

John C - gotcha.  It's just that... well... my Irish friends and kin might string me up for saying this, and insert here a caveat that I still think the course is among the 5 greatest I've ever played most likely... but... I don't put Royal County Down in the "toughest" category because in benign conditions I shot 76 and I am NOT that good.  My other friends all came in around or under their handicaps also... Maybe it's the short par 5's and reachable par 4 16th.. oh well.  Oh, it ain't easy in any case and the shots you mention are damn tough - not patting myself on the back too much but I played well that 76 round - but in comparison I just can't imagine breaking 80 from the back tees at Spyglass unless I somehow have Tiger Woods possess my body.  And even then we'd have trouble - Tiger would have a damn hard time adjusting to the loss of 4 inches in height and gain of 50 pounds...

But I digress.

Anyway, we're on the same wavelength re links - in general they need the wind to play really tough.

That's a huge generalization, but fair I think.

Another extremely hard course, at least for little ole me, has always been Olympic Club - Lake.  Now I hear from Gib that it's playing a bit easier lately, due to tree trimming, rough down, etc... but damn, I just can't picture that beast ever being all that easy.  You just have too many 200+ shots into par 4's... too much curving the ball both ways required... too tricky greens... damn a score there is well-earned regardless of weather.  Just a thought from a humble hack.

TH

[Ben C. Dewar]

Noel,
I agree with you on Koolau, I cannot believe how hard it was.

Charlie,
I played Oakmont this spring and would have to agree that it makes my top five, with greens like that and the rough.......

PGA West is damn tough too.

If you bring conditions into play, I would have to mention other Hawaii courses, or Seminole, in a hard Florida wind, I hit a 4 iron in 17, that was brutal day.

[peterserp]

1. Carnoustie: The hardest "great" course I've played. I'm a ten handicap. Played TOC three years ago in 81. Played Carnoustie the next day and hit the ball better but shot 98.  It's just so penal if you're a hair off the fairway.
This year shot 80 at TOC then 93 at Carnoustie (6900 yds. from the members tees).

2. Lagoon Legends - Water everywhere - Only time I ever had to stop at the turn and buy more balls.

3. The Ocean Course - They've softened it a bit. With the forecaddies it's much easier to find errant shots. Still a bear if the wind gets up.

These are my top 3 hardest.

Pete

[THuckaby2]

OK, again, maybe it's me, but I played Carnoustie also in very light wind and the rough cut way down and well, it too doesn't make my "hardest" list.  I can see if the wind blew I'd get my ass kicked but without it... well... a good score was achieved.  Now obviously in the Van de Velde Open conditions (poor Lawrie, in a few more years no one will even remember he won) it's a different story.  But it's not kept that way always, thank God... In normal every day conditions and no wind, well it's still tough, but not in any "toughest" category.  It needs the rough and the wind.

Don't get me wrong, it's never gonna be an "easy" course no matter what.  But it does need other factors to get it into the "toughest" category, methinks.

TH

[jim_lewis]

Tom:

At Carnoustie "normal, everyday conditions"
IS windy.  The same can be said for the Ocean course and Shinnecock. A day with "no wind" is an exception, therefore, I think all three can be included in any list of great tough courses under normal condidtions.

Oakmont, Winged Foot-West, Pinehurst#2, Pine Valley, and Spyglass are great courses that are tough every day, even if there is zero wind.

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