[Keith Williams]

I don't think anybody at GCA knows me, but I have been a long-time lurker.  

Anyway, I am currently searching for a topic for my senior honors thesis at the University of Tennessee.  I was thinking about doing a commentary/analysis of two of the best golf courses in East Tennessee- Holston Hills and The Honors.  Comparing the two provokes intrigue...on one hand you have a hidden, well preserved Donald Ross gem and on the other you have a highly regarded modern design by possibly the most influential architect of the past 25 years and both are located in E. Tenn.--not exactly what you would consider a golf rich area.  Whether the commentary results in a conclusion distinguishing the "better" course or not, the possibility of comparing design strategy, engineering and aesthetics has the potential (in my eyes, at least) to be a compelling work.  I have played The Honors and I was highly impressed.  On the other hand, I have not experienced Holston Hills yet, but I am fairly confident that I will be able to get on when I want to.

Basically, I would really enjoy hearing everyone's views regarding the two courses. Any input or opinion would be great.  Thanks!

[RobertWalker]

Keith,
I think that you have hit upon a great idea. I would think that this is a great chance to compare shaping and shaping techniques of 2 different designers and 2 different times. Also, the surrounding areas of each course are worth studying. The Holston Hills area of Knoxville used to be one of the best parts of the town. I do not know what it is like now, but I suspect that the re-recognition of Holston Hills CC has helped bring it back a little.
The Honors is more of a camp atmosphere insulated by rural surroundings.
GO VOLS!

[Ran Morrissett]

A great, great topic and I think you're on to something that lends itself to fascinating comparisons.

One of the courses is much simpler and cleaner in appearance and even adjusted for like day $, would have cost a fraction of what the other cost to build.

Both courses are set on massive blocks of property and the architect had a free run with no housing considerations to limit him.

And yet, while its subtle holes lack the drama that holes like the 9th at The Honors possess, overall the holes at Holston Hills may be better:

1. Holston Hills 1 up (sooooo much cleaner)
2. HH 2 up
3. HH 3 up (The Honors 3rd highlights why Dye's more restrained work at The Golf Club is better/more timeless)
4. HH 3 up
5. HH 3 up (maybe the two best on each course?)
6. HH 4 up (that bunker 10 paces behind the 6th green at The Honors kills me)
7. HH 5 up
8. HH 5 up
9. HH 4 up
10. HH 4 up
11. HH 3 up
12. HH 3 up (two more GREAT holes)
13. HH 4 up
14. HH 3 up
15. HH 3 up (a great classic vs. modern comparison)
16. HH 2 up
17. HH 2up
18. HH 1 up

Certainly, The Honors Course is longer and harder as the threat of a double bogey or worse looms large on its water holes (7,8,9,15, and 16).

Overall, the most architecturally striking feature (to me) of the two courses is Ross's relentlessly brilliant (and numerous) green placements on top of the hillocks across Holston Hills. And the three worst architectural features are all at The Honors Course (the built up ridge off the 2nd tee that obscures the line of charm and a great fairway bunker complex, the bunker well behind the 6th green), and the sunken 7th fairway).

Conversely, David Stone's masterful work with different grasses gives The Honors a rich texture rarely found in inland golf and makes The Honors Course pass "the walk in the park" test with flying colors.

Good luck - you have a great topic to pursue!

Cheers,

PS The only shame is that you can't work in something in relation to Lookout Mountain and Black Creek. Coupled with the other two, they make eastern Tennessee a must for all golfers.

[john_stiles]

Keith,

Sounds like a good topic.

I also like Ran's idea of Lookout Mountain  (restored classic, originally Raynor layout) versus Black Creek, a wonderful 'modern/ classic'... one course restored by Silva, one course designed by Silva as tribute to Raynor/Macdonald.  Lookout's greens and layout, as a whole,  are very good ...perhaps slight edge to Lookout IMO.

Interestingly,  you could 'sort' of get the 'story' from discussions with Mr Stein and Silva as both are living and kicking quite hard. I say 'sort' of because Raynor/Banks are resting in peace.  Lookout/ Black Creek is perhaps the best golf story in the east Tennessee area today.  You have the hard work and effort by Lookout Mtn members in restoring Lookout Mtn and then the building of Black Creek by a few key Lookout Mtn members, heavily involved in prior Lookout Mtn restoration, makes for a compelling story.

Another idea, just to muddy the waters,  how about one modern, The Virginian/Fazio versus
another modern, The Olde Farm/Weed ?  These courses are only separated by a  'few miles'  of each other in southwest Virginia, very close to Tennessee, they are and play totally different ..... slight edge to Olde Farm IMO.  The interesting angle, to me, is the type of land and the use of that land for each course and how you could possibly dicuss the courses with the architects.

As a member of Holston Hills though, the idea of Honors ($$$$$) versus Holston Hills ($$) is interesting as you would have the interest of comparing two great courses with the reality/perception of great conditioning/exclusivity bouncing in your head.  Then...I imagine that you would get to talk with the superintendents, David Stone and Ryan Blair, which would be a fun part of the work.

Good luck with your senior project.

[RobertWalker]

I know that David Stone graduated from UT, and it seems to me that he might have worked at Holston Hills before he went to Ooltewah.
GO VOLS!

[john_stiles]

Robert,

David Stone (UT-1971)worked at Holston Hills before Mr Lupton made him an offer he couldn't refuse and has since earned many accolades and national 'honors' for his work at The Honors.

Ryan Blair, now at Holston Hills, also graduated from UT and worked for David Stone at the Honors before coming to Cherokee CC in Knoxville and then to Holston Hills.

Keith,

If you need anything at Holston, you can forward email to me at jstiles@demaximis.com. Ryan Blair's email address is  blair1927@aol.com. I believe Ryan may be headed to French Lick for Rater's Cup and would probably be back on Sunday or Monday.

Go Vols,
John

[RobertWalker]

Wish that I was up on Rocky Top
Down in the Tennessee Hills

[Ken_Cotner]

Ran, you owe Keith a round for offering the perfect lead-in to "Match Play" between courses  .

KC

[Keith Williams]

Thanks for the comments guys,

Robert,
    I believe you are correct, I have read a couple of different sources stating that David Stone was at Holston Hills before moving to The Honors when it opened.

Ran,
    As I mentioned before, I have not yet played Holston Hills, but I agree with your assessment of The Honors.  I thought that The Honors possesses many solid golf holes and even a couple of spectacular ones, but it also has its weaknesses.  I have always been particularly troubled by the 7th at The Honors.  The character and atmosphere of the holes does not seem to fit with the rest of the course.  I know that the wooden bulkheading (as opposed to the stone work) contributes to that and I wonder if the wooden edge was an engineering necessity resulting from the location of the hole on the top of the earthen dam.  Other holes there, though, are a joy.  On the front I really liked 4, 5 (except for my 3-putt), 8 and 9 (obviously).  The back nine has a some subtle, wonderful holes, 12-16 are great and I really like the petite 12 and 14.  15 is a great solid golf hole and I think Pete managed to do a great job creating an understated, yet dangerous, par 3 in 16 (I was over the green on my tee shot and faced one of the scariest pitches I can remember).  17 isn't necessarily a spectacular hole, but I love the 18th as a finishing hole especially considering the final holes offer a very un-Dyeish finish (stereotypically speaking).
    I liked your idea that was seconded by John regarding Lookout Mountain and Black Creek.  I only know a little about Black Creek and even less about Lookout Mountain.  In fact, most of what I know about LM I learned at this website.  Black Creek on the other hand garnered a fair amount of attention when it opened.  I have a friend who is a professional at Cherokee CC here in Knoxville who got to play it.  He is pretty well versed in golf architecture and he absolutely loved it, though he did express some surprise that a portion of the course is routed through a housing development.  I'm sure that the houses don't affect any of the strategic values of the course, but it is still a surprise, nonetheless.  Regardless, though, the two courses (and the stories behind them) seem incredible.  I am undoubtedly going to check into the possibility of including both in my thesis.

    Additionally, John, the Virginian/Olde Farm situation begs for comparison if for no other reason their close proximity and high design quality.  I know a fair number of people who have played The Virginian, most liked it; though I am not sure they liked it for the design or simply for the conditioning and aesthetics.  Even though, you are right, a comparison between the two is intriguing and should be pursued.

An interesting side note, since I was talking about how golfers might enjoy a course simply because of good conditioning or pretty views (not necessarily The Virginian, but any course)...do most of you out there think that the average golfer can't discern the difference between great golf course architecture and mediocre golf course architecture?  I spent this past summer talking with a lot of the members at my home club and found that while some do seem to have an appreciation for what makes up a great design, many usually base their opinion of a golf course on the condition that it is in and whether it is "pretty".  Even the ones that do have an understanding of golf design and strategy don't seem to appreciate what some architects are doing today [ie they would rather go play a beautiful, plush new assembly line Fazio design (I am from Atlanta and both White Columns and The Frog jump into my mind) than head down to Cuscowilla on Lake Oconee].  Anyway, I have digressed far too much.

    I welcome any more comments!

[Keith Williams]

John,
    Thanks for the great contacts.  I will be away from campus this weekend in Atlanta, but I may be contacting you or Mr. Blair soon regarding HH.  Thanks and GO BIG ORANGE!

[RobertWalker]

How can a bunker the size of a bath tub, that is out of sight, and basically out of play possibly have anything to do with the value of a hole?
That bunker on 6 is a bit of folly, and I have no problem with it whatsoever.

[Scott W.]

The zoysia around the greens make it impossible for that bunker on #6 to be in play unles you land the ball in there.  In fact, there are several bunkers at the Honors that are taken out of play because of the slow characterisitics of zoysia.  

[Ran Morrissett]

Robert,

As you know, The Honors Course reflects Lupton's no-nonsense approach with everything being first class without being overstated.

Thus, something as meaningless and superfluous as that bunker is incongruous with the rest of the place to the point where some locals refer to it as a Myrtle Beach bunker.

If you stripped out 4/5 other such features of PB's work, then The Honors Course would achieve the lofty rankings that Lupton always hoped it would.

Cheers,

[RobertWalker]

Let me re-phrase my question:
How can a TINY bunker, the size of a LARGE bath tub, that is out of sight, and basically out of play possibly have anything to do with the VALUE of a hole?

The only time you really see this bunker is when you are standing on the 7th tee, looking back to the 6th tee.

[Ran Morrissett]

Aren't man-made features by definition artificial? And if they add nothing to the hole, then I view them as a negative in that they compete with the natural environment, thus reducing in my mind the value of the hole/course by some degree. This is especially true at The Honors Course, where the walk itself is so inspiring given the property's environment.

Put another way, do you think other courses would benefit by having more such features or are you saying that in this isolated case, you like this particular bunker?

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Ok enough of this Go vols stuff. I think this is a great project and you will have plenty of free time to sulk and work on it after my LSU Tigers dust off the vols sat. Go Tigersssssss!!

[Scott_Burroughs]

John,
   Will you be attending LSU's opening game next year?  It will be at Virgnia Tech's newly expanded stadium under the lights (we have a pretty good nighttime atmosphere ourselves). If so, you can tailgate with me if you want.  Goooo Hok...Oh never mind.

   Have you played LSU's new course, The University Club?  It's a sister course of my home club in NC, but I haven't played it.  Closest I got was the national championship game in N'awlins Jan 2000.

[RobertWalker]

The shaping of the Honors is as man-made and artificial as it gets. Look at the bunker behind 5, or the entire 7th hole. This does not detract from the greatness of its strategy. However, most of the shaping looks very “man-made”. The main reason for the greatness of the Honors is the work of David Stone. He has brought "naturalness" to this course. I suspect that he has influenced many of Pete Dye's subsequent designs as well. I would compare the shaping of the Honors with the shaping of Holston Hills before I did a hole by hole comparison.

As for the bunker behind 6, I do like it, and I like it for the very reasons that Ran dislikes it. It reminds me of the bunker on 17 at Ponte Vedra. They are both the same size. The difference is that one is in front of the green, and the other is in back. The funny thing is that both are in a way either not seen or regarded by the player. On 6, it is not seen at all, and on the 17th at the TPC, it is not regarded because the player is concerned with keeping his ball away from a much bigger hazard.

A bunker and mound combination that I like, and that some would find silly is located in the landing area at Seminole (if they have not changed it) on number 18. There is a perfectly round mound in the middle of a large bunker, and next to this bunker, is a perfectly round bunker the same size as the mound. Did Ross do this? I think so.

[John Bernhardt]

Scott, I will be at the game and hope to meet you and play a round together. Yes i am a member of the university club in baton rouge. it is a good but not great jim lipe design. he was part of the jack n shop. the course is well thought of in the area and generally gets a much higher rewiew than i would give it. lets hope golf matrix finds a good buyer for its properties  who will maintain and improve them.

[herrstein]

Keith,
I would be glad to expound ad nauseum about LM, The Honors, and Black Creek. I love Holston too, although I have only played it about 10 times and can't claim the familiarity with it that some in Knoxville can.
If you need to get on any of the courses in Chattanooga and want to know more about their construction, I would be happy to help.
As for the little bunker behind 6th Honors, it is there because it acts as a parabolic dish for your own voice, as you curse yourself for making a 6 on this hole, trying to make a 4.
No kidding- it reflects your voice, and if you stand the proper distance, the sound of your own self-reprobation can be made deafening.

[Keith Williams]

Thanks for all the input everybody.

I agree that The Honors has some quirky aspects, especially in the earthwork and bunkering, but in my limited experience with the course I have never witnessed something like the bunker everyone has been talking about that has seriously swayed my opinion of the architecture.  That, of course, may change with my subsequent analysis.  Also, like Robert mentioned, The Honors Course, by virtue of David Stone's great work, takes mounding and earthwork that could appear  artificial and still manages to pull off a  "rough" and very "natural" look.  Could a seemingly randomly placed bunker on a hole also contribute to the same look or feel...I am not sure.  I think that is one of the interesting things about The Honors, though; it appears natural, but one's eye and mind can still register the artificial contributions from the architect.  There is no denying that the earthwork is artificial, but the maintenance and appearance definitely  offer a separate illusion.  I think in a way this juxtaposition is pleasing to both the eye and the mind and on some holes it works flawlessly (#12, #14 come to mind).  Additonally, as much as this is merely an aesthetic consideration, the very artificial lake system on the site of The Honors (with the exception of hole #7) is presented in a very natural fashion, another great job by both the Dyes and David Stone (and crew).  Regardless, I hope to have ample opportunity to evaluate the course more so that I can construct a more comprehensive opinion.

Mr. Bernhardt,
   Please don't tell me that you place enough faith in your LSU kittens to actually believe that they will offer any contest against the vols    I hope that your team realizes a) it is not playing the same team it played last year and b) that it is a different game in a much different environment when you play in front of 108,000 orange-clad fans that are rooting against you in one of the greatest settings in all of college sports.  Regardless, I wish your team the best of luck in trying to score a touchdown against John Henderson and the rest of our defense  

Herrstein,
   I welcome any information you have to offer regarding The Honors.  As great as it sounds, I think I am going to have to leave out Black Creek and Lookout Mountain from this project (not that I wouldn't still be ecstatic about seeing or even playing either of the great courses).  Anything you want to contribute, though, is welcome.  I am not sure about your relationship with The Honors, but I would really love to visit there again just to compile notes of the holes and take some photographs; if playing is also a possibility, I would like to possibly pursue that avenue also.  You are very welcome to email me at kwillia4@utk.edu if that is how you want to communicate.  If this offer is to open-ended then I can approach you at a later date with a scope or questions of tighter focus.  Thank you very much for the offer.

Any more input from anybody is still welcomed!

GO VOLS!
 

[John Morrissett]

I have never been to The Honors (or to Holston Hills), but I have seen a number of photographs that Robert Walker took of The Honors for the club a few years ago.  Specifically, the one he took from behind the 6th green looking back, showing the bunker in question, sticks out in my mind.

It's an appealing photograph, and I think the photograph would suffer if that bunker were not there.  However, does that help or hurt the cause?  Most of us would agree that features should not be added to a hole just to make it more photogenic, but in this case my understanding is that the player has that view from the 7th tee (i.e., he does not just see the bunker when walking from 6 to 7).  Since many members of this DG have signed off on the premise that almost all bunkering is "eye-candy" any way, what's wrong with using a bunker every now and then for just that purpose?  I am remembered how the appeal of the bunkering at the 7th green at Pacific Dunes is best appreciated from the 8th tee -- nothing wrong with that.

P.S.  Didn't one of the "great" architects (I forget who) once write that there is no such thing as a poorly placed bunker?

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