[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

I'm going to guess:

-- You've played NGLA many times

and/or

-- You had a well-trained caddie on that recent occasion when you supposedly played by "feel."

If either of those is true, it is my opinion that you didn't play by FEEL. You played by a combination of FEEL and LOCAL EXPERIENCE.

My entire point here, which you have stubbornly failed to address, is that some yardage information, supplied in some form (scorecard, 150-yard markers, caddies) by the operators of a golf course, is welcome TO A FIRST-TIME PLAYER, because it makes the game more fun for the first-time player. Period.

I said I'd be delighted to play without any guidance at my home course, where I could develop the local knowledge that is 90% of "feel" -- but that I would be unhappy with no guidance at one of these expensive Country Clubs for a Day or Fancy Resort Courses. I'm trying to draw a distinction here, and I'd appreciate your acknowledging that -- even if, after acknowledging it, you reject it.

Last fall, I got the chance to play three courses down in Cabo San Lucas (Cabo del Sol, Palmilla, Eldorado). I played them one time apiece. Each cost in the neighborhood of $150-200 -- real money, in my neck of the woods. No caddies were offered. The courses featured massive rises and falls. Unnavigable canyons. Alien (to me) vegetation, amid wide-open spaces -- which, at least for me, made distance calculations, by feel, exceedingly difficult. I very much appreciated the information supplied on the scorecards about the lengths of the forced carries, etc. -- so that my well-struck shots had a better chance of ending on a green rather than at the bottom of some snake-lined canyon.

Does anyone else out there see what I'm trying to say -- or have my writing skills, so little used during 20 years as an editor, declined so severely that NO ONE can understand what I'm saying? (Smily face.)

[Lou_Duran]

Dan:

I fully understand your points and agree with many of them.  If I ever get the opportunity to play NGLA, I hope that I have a caddy that can tell me where to aim and how far to hit it.  Like you, I don't often have the opportunity to play a great course more than a couple of times.  For me, it is hard enough to play a new course confidently with limited information (typical markers to middle of the green).  Personally, I enjoy golf more when I am playing well, and I think that I can appreciate the special nuances of an intricate design if I am playing a course as it was intended.  I don't like GPS and I deplore carts.  I do think that unobstrusive distance signs such as on sprinkler heads are not only helpful in playing better golf, they also assist in speeding up the game.  However, if someone invites me to play at most any of the Long Island courses for a week, I would be willing to forgoe the use of all artificial visual aids and rely totally on my senses.    

[Lou_Duran]

Come on Patrick.  End the suspense.

[Raymond]

I heartily agree with you Dan.I've had a chronic eye defect since birth that has always given me depth perception problems. Added to that, the older I get I just can't see the ball land past 180 yards or so. Given those difficulties, yardage indicators or a strong caddy are essential if I'm going to play close to my handicap (6.0 usga). I need suplemental information or I'm dead. The more information the better as far as I'm concerned.

[Bob_Huntley]

Imagine if you will, that you are standing on the first tee at TOC for the very first time, no starter around, no where to buy a Stroke-Saver, no caddies in sight and you do not have a friendly local to shepard you around. Starting at the second tee you would begin having problems discerning a route, going deeper into the round I believe frustration would set in. I happen to agree with Dan that LOCAL EXPERIENCE counts for a great deal, the first turn out.

As some members of this forum would agree, I think I am a feel player and quite possibly one of the fastest to pull the trigger, maybe that's why I can no longer break 80.

[Charles_P.]

So "Atlantic" is the answer?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

Firstly, you keep on missing the stated fact and words I posted, that a good caddy is supplied/mandated at this course.  
How much more information would you need.

You must be younger than me.
When I learned to play, there were no yardage makers, colored pins, maps, codes, etc., etc..  EVERYONE played by feel.

Some of my best rounds have been the first time I played a golf course, when I didn't have knowledge of where the trouble was.  
I played by the signals the architect sent to my eye, and it seemed to work well.

All this whining for an over abundance of information is.... you said it, SPOILED.

Architects sometimes attempt to create illusions and deception through a variety of techniques, but you want to defeat that element by having counter measures in the form of unlimited data. You want perfection, with no room for variables.

How on earth do you play golf when the wind is swirling ?

Isn't part of the challenge of the game of golf determining what option to pick, what club to hit, and how to hit it ?  
Or do you prefer a coach, telling you exactly what to do prior to each shot ?

I've hit what I thought was a great shot, only to realize I had been fooled by the archhitect. I like that, it sharpens my skills in detecting architectual nuances.

You like crutches, I prefer to walk on my own, even if I have to limp now and then.

Charles P,

Yes.

Raymond,

If this is Ray Charles, I can see your point.
I too have very poor eyesight, but let me repeat what I've said over and over and over, this course provides very good caddies, AND what you see is what you get, assuming 20/20 eyesight.

Lou Duran,

There is a unique joy in playing courses like NGLA, PV, GCGC and it is not dependent on whether you have mis-estimated the distance to the pin.  There is a sense that you and the golf course are more in tune with the natural elements that surround you,
uncluttered by unsightly obstructions.
I feel those obstructions are unneccesary, Dan seems to crave and need them.  We simply look at golf and golf courses differently.

Yardage indicators on sprinkler heads do not speed up play, if you factor in the time people take in searching them out.
In the old days, players looked at the shot ahead, made a decision and pulled the trigger, and play was considerably faster than we experience today.  Nicklaus, Andrews, The pro tour and TV have bogged us down with five to six hour rounds.

Most of the caddies at PV and NGLA will tell you the yardage books are worthless.  
Let them watch you hit a shot or two, and they'll club you better than if you played strictly by the yardage.

Bob,

Armed with a good caddy I have no doubt you would play at pace, and enjoy your round.
Would there be bits of imperfection in your play, sure, there's imperfection in everyone's game.  But to depend on an abundance of outside devoces and advice in order to enjoy your game isn't what I would consider golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

Firstly, you keep on missing the stated fact and words I posted, that a good caddy is supplied/mandated at this course.  
How much more information would you need.

You must be younger than me.
When I learned to play, there were no yardage makers, colored pins, maps, codes, etc., etc..  EVERYONE played by feel.

Some of my best rounds have been the first time I played a golf course, when I didn't have knowledge of where the trouble was.  
I played by the signals the architect sent to my eye, and it seemed to work well.

All this whining for an over abundance of information is.... you said it, SPOILED.

Architects sometimes attempt to create illusions and deception through a variety of techniques, but you want to defeat that element by having counter measures in the form of unlimited data. You want perfection, with no room for variables.

How on earth do you play golf when the wind is swirling ?

Isn't part of the challenge of the game of golf determining what option to pick, what club to hit, and how to hit it ?  
Or do you prefer a coach, telling you exactly what to do prior to each shot ?

I've hit what I thought was a great shot, only to realize I had been fooled by the archhitect. I like that, it sharpens my skills in detecting architectual nuances.

You like crutches, I prefer to walk on my own, even if I have to limp now and then.

Charles P,

Yes.

Raymond,

If this is Ray Charles, I can see your point.
I too have very poor eyesight, but let me repeat what I've said over and over and over, this course provides very good caddies, AND what you see is what you get, assuming 20/20 eyesight.

Lou Duran,

There is a unique joy in playing courses like NGLA, PV, GCGC and it is not dependent on whether you have mis-estimated the distance to the pin.  There is a sense that you and the golf course are more in tune with the natural elements that surround you,
uncluttered by unsightly obstructions.
I feel those obstructions are unneccesary, Dan seems to crave and need them.  We simply look at golf and golf courses differently.

Yardage indicators on sprinkler heads do not speed up play, if you factor in the time people take in searching them out.
In the old days, players looked at the shot ahead, made a decision and pulled the trigger, and play was considerably faster than we experience today.  Nicklaus, Andrews, The pro tour and TV have bogged us down with five to six hour rounds.

Most of the caddies at PV and NGLA will tell you the yardage books are worthless.  
Let them watch you hit a shot or two, and they'll club you better than if you played strictly by the yardage.

Bob,

Armed with a good caddy I have no doubt you would play at pace, and enjoy your round.
Would there be bits of imperfection in your play, sure, there's imperfection in everyone's game.  But to depend on an abundance of outside devoces and advice in order to enjoy your game isn't what I would consider golf.

[Lou_Duran]

Patrick:

It is perhaps true that we look at golf and golf courses differently.  I do agree with your comment about the unique joy of playing those hallowed courses.  For me that experience is further enhanced when I play well, and knowing approximate distances allows me to swing more confidently which usually results in better shot making.  I am not a very visual or artistic person, and while I enjoy hitting a variety of shots, I am more successful when uncertainty is minimized.

Your comments about Nicklaus are another matter.  He may be deliberate in his shot making, but have you ever tried to keep up with him between shots?  Could it be that he was generally in the thick of the hunt and everyone around him was also bearing down more?  I have great respect and affection for Jack Nicklaus, so I am not entirely objective about his style of play or his golf courses (the half a dozen of which I've played, I've thouroughly enjoyed).  BTW, who is this Andrews guy?  Is the answer to your question Atlantic?  How private is it?    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou Duran,

Mr Andrews is generally credited with creating personal yardage books for the courses he competed on.  It is believed that Nicklaus adopted his methods after having played with, and competing against him.  He was an excellent amateur.  Nicklaus popularized the yardage/distance books.

I too think Nicklaus may be the greatest player who ever played, based on his record, but, his slow, deliberate style of play didn't help improve the pace of the game for the millions who play weekly.  Nicklaus's slow play in the final round at Ridgewood cost him the USGA SR OPEN, according to Trevino.

Atlantic is the answer, and it is a private club.  Atlantic has maintained a low profile and continues to try to make improvements in keeping with traditional values.

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

I give up.

You ask too many questions, and you don't read my answers carefully enough.

I have NOT ignored or missed your note that Atlantic supplies/mandates caddies. I was simply answering the question you asked.

You did not ask, sir, if we would enjoy playing at the Atlantic Club. Of course I would. Any of us would.

You asked if other courses should follow suit. I said, very plainly, that I would be happy to play without any information whatsoever at my home course, where I could develop my own local knowledge, but that I would not like such a course as a first-time, probably only-time visitor -- because most of the expensive public courses do not supply caddies, knowledgeable or otherwise, and there is absolutely no reason to think that that will change. (If you had, in fact, included knowledgeable caddies in your initial description of the courses you were envisioning as following Atlantic's lead, I might have answered much more plainly: in the affirmative.)

You say -- absolutely falsely, and with no justification whatsoever -- that I like "unsightly distractions." Excuse my rudeness, but: What BS, sir. I ask you (though I'm not expecting an answer): How unsightly is a scorecard in your pocket? How unsightly is a pin sheet in your pocket? (Reminder: I'm talking about public courses only. At your private clubs, give me your classic simple scorecard, along with a caddie, and forget your pin sheets and colored flags.)

And just because you asked, not that it matters: I love playing in a swirling wind. The harder it blows, and the swirlier it gets, the happier I am. (You can keep your rain, but give me the wind every day.) Put a 30 mph wind in my face, or at my back, or at some strange cross-angle, and put a golf club in my hand, and I'm as happy as I get on Earth.

All I want to know is how far it is, within a few yards, that I need to hit my next shot -- into, with, or across that big wind. If this is "spoiled," I plead guilty.

[SPDB]

Patrick,

Caddies are de facto yardage books, pin indicators, hole guides. I agree with most of the posters, that when you approach your ball and your caddy tells you that "it's 167 to the flag, 161 to the front, and 165 to carry the bunker on the right in front of the pin," that that is not relying on feel whatsoever, but rather relying on somebody else's knowledge of the course. Presumably this knowledge proxy has relied on yardage indications given to him by his employers (essentially a yardage book). Perhaps there is an oral history bequeathed from caddy to caddy at Atlantic, but nevertheless, at some point somebody had to rely on yardage instructions from people in the know.

Despite your protestations to the contrary I do not believe there is a intuitive knowledge of a golf course that can be gleaned from tips offered by the architect in every instance.

Your postings about how people detected yardage/club selection in "the old days" sound eerily familiar to my father's claims that when he was a boy he had to walk 10 miles to school, in the snow, uphill BOTH WAYS.

That's all I have to say, and I wish this thread would be expunged. It is far too acrimonious.

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Mucci --

Correction: You said I "crave" "unsightly obstructions" (not "unsightly distractions").

Equally false.

[BarnyF]

I think the "swirlier" (love that word) this argument becomes the more likely that a dead irishman can make sense of what Patrick was trying to say...Joseph Cambell has caught the beauty of not being distracted by unnecessay elements in the poem "The Blind Man at the Fair"

O to be blind!
To know the darkness that I know.
The stir I hear is empty wind,
The people idly come and go.

The sun is black, tho' warm and kind,
The horsemen ride, the streamers blow,
Vainly in the fluky wind,
For all is darkness where I go.

The cattle bellow to their kind,
The mummers dance, the jugglers throw,
The thimble-rigger speaks his mind-
But all is darkness where I go.

I feel the touch of womankind,
Their dresses flow as white as snow;
But beauty is a withered rind
For all is darkness where I go.

Last night the moon of Lammas shined,
Rising high and setting low;
But light is nothing to the blind-
All, all is darkness where they go.

White roads I walk with vacant mind,
White cloud-shapes round me drifting slow,
White lilies waving in the wind-
And darkness everywhere I go.

When I take myself from the blindmans fair and think of being on the golf course I feel what he can not see in the beauty of the stir of the empty wind....white cloud shapes drifting slow and white lillies waving in the wind...

[Dan Kelly]

BarnyF --

Let me see if I understand this.

Are you saying that Mr. Mucci would be better off if he were literally blind, too?

Or are you saying that white lilies are unsightly obstacles? (They're certainly temporary obstacles ... as are we all ... though they're not so immovable as some of us.)

Thanks for liking "swirlier." The longer this debate goes on, the swirlier I feel (and the closer to being a dead Irishman).

[Dan Kelly]

Obstructions, not obstacles. What an idiot.

[BarnyF]

Dan what I am saying is that too much information "Blinds" a player from enjoying the finer points of the game.  If you spend your time doing math you may miss the white lillies...the sound of the wind...the cloud formations.  Scoring is not what good golf is about...its about winning...winning againsts your opponent...winning against the diversity of a bad lie or bad shot...winning against that thing inside each of us that hates to confront our lack of talent... we hate to accept our shortcomings and to glorify in our mediocrocy.  We can lead men and not be Winston Churchill...We can golf and not be Bobby Jones...but we can never be honest with ourselves in an equation of linear means.

[Dan Kelly]

BarnyF (aka PatF -- go, girl!)

I guess I should have used a lineup of smily faces in that dead-Irishman post, eh?

I understand (and understood) exactly what you were saying.

I ask you (and maybe Mr. Mucci) to understand this -- and believe it, because it's the truth: My score is the last thing I care about on the golf course. My score has NOTHING to do with why I want a little information.  

One of the things I care MOST about on the golf course is the extreme, perhaps inordinate pleasure of watching a crisply struck approach shot fly toward a green and land, as some writer better than I has written, "like a butterfly with sore feet." It's an aesthetically thrilling moment -- my own little work of art.

The fact that such shots lead to lower scores is quite beside the point. In the middle of a deep, dark Minnesota winter, I NEVER look back and remember a good score. I think of a couple of sunny, windy September days at Sand Hills, back in 1996, when I never came within half-a-dozen shots of playing to my handicap. Or: I think of a spectacular Sunday afternoon at North Berwick, two Novembers ago, when my wife walked along as I played a nearly empty course alone. Or: I think of a beautiful little knocked-down 4-iron I hit two summers ago, from 150 yards out, into a big big wind from 1 o'clock, that held its line like a dart and ended up 8 feet below the pin. (Once in a while, I remember that I made the putt, too -- but that's only an airy little trifle of a dessert. The feast is that iron shot.)

The pleasure of watching the glorious flight of a fine shot is, for me (and I don't ask anyone to accept this view of life), diminished severely, perhaps inordinately, when, instead of landing on the green like a butterfly with sore feet, my purely struck shot plops into that yawning bunker in the front or disappears from view as it bounds down the hill behind the green; or, instead of seeing the well-struck ball clear that wetland hazard, I watch it dive into the muck a yard short of clearing.

The less information I have, the more likely are such results, and the rarer will be the thrill of conquest.

I like to feel (there's that word!) that if I execute the shot I intend to execute, things will turn out, more often than not, the way I hoped. Which makes me happier. Which is why I want information.

--30--

[Mike O'Neill]

BarnyF,

Beauty (and Ugly) is in the eye of the beholder, blind or otherwise. To each his/her own. Is it really that important to make Dan Kelly in your "image"? Isn't the game of golf big enough for everyone? And to use another eye reference, intolerance is rather unsightly, no? Isn't it far better to tolerate some courses having yardage information and some not, then to exclude those things we don't like at every course? Golf is a fairly giving game, if not forgiving.

By the way, my golf swing is probably one of the more unsightly things on a golf course, so the signs and postings are usually a useful distraction for my playing partners. And when I yell "Look out!" I am hoping the group ahead sees it coming.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I hadn't been keeping up with this thread but I noticed that about half way through it you mentioned that we've had some battles (and TommyN too). I don't know about you and TommyN but I don't think we've had any battles--just a few interesting tete-a-tetes (and it's true neither of us take them personally)!

For real battles I generally call on my old friend Colin. He only asks me where and I only ask him when!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The Answer is:

Atlantic Golf Club!!!

Enough said, so end the discussion already. I told you in past postings that answer lay within my response to Herb Flood.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

"Battles" was figurative, trying to imply that we disagreed about a subject and voiced our position and objections.

Dan Kelly,

We disagree on so many areas, where shall I begin ?

To clarify a definition for you.

"OBSTRUCTIONS" An "obstruction" is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths......

Aren't tee signs obstructions ?  How about yardage markers ?

I read your posts very carefully.  In fact, I read them several times in an attempt to decipher what you are saying.  For example:

On your 09-24-01, 3:27 pm post you wrote,
"if I were a visitor, and got to play it once, I would be most unhappy."

Yet, on your 09-27-01,11:01 pm post you wrote
"...if we would enjoy playing at the Atlantic Club.  Of course I would."

Do you see the contradictory and confusing nature of your posts ?

Then you go further to contradict your
09-24-01 3:27 pm post, by declaring in your
09-25-01, 11:47 pm post
"because, I'm not an idiot, I would love Pine Valley, Shinnecock, NGLA and GCGC..."

Does this mean that idiots are prohibited from playing these courses ?

You feel that perfectly struck shots should, universally, be rewarded, and I don't feel that's the ultimate goal of golf, nor should it be the result of every perfectly hit golf shot.  I believe the aspect of uncertainty creates some of the challenge to the game.
The swirling wind, will impact the perfectly struck shot, the texture of the land will affect the perfectly struck golf shot.  The deceipt the architect projects through his design is intended to confuse or create doubt in the golfers mind, making it more difficult to select and execute the perfectly struck shot.

How do you account for barometric pressure and its influence on the distance your ball will fly ?

The original post dealt with guessing which course didn't provide a number of listed, unattractive, obstructions.  The second part dealt with questioning if courses should be with or without these items.  You like, need or crave these items, I don't.

If, as you state, you don't care about score, what's the big deal if you strike a perfect shot, but the results are less than perfect, due to wind, bounce, or misjudgement on your part.  You did hit the ball perfectly, but that shouldn't guarantee a perfect result.  Fairness is not virtue of the game.

You prefer maps, codes, scorecards with diagrams, colored flags on pins, tee signs with abundant information and precise yardage from every point on the course,
I don't.  I think eliminating these unsightly items makes for a more traditional, better looking golf course, uncluttered by artificial aides.

SPDB,

Sean, On a nice morning round, how does the caddy have any better idea on where the pin is, and its distance from the front or back of the green than you do, unless he just has better eyesight

Maybe your dad's folks moved every afternoon and evening.

You too may be to young to remember, but, the game has suffered in many ways, due to lack of play by feel. This all started in the early fifties when the USGA banned the stymie.  Ask Tom Paul, he'll confirm this.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

The short post above the above lengthly one is not mine, but a cowardly imposter, to ashamed or afraid to post under their own name.  

One totally lacking in character and integrity.

[Ken_Cotner]

GCA equivalent of the smiley face:  "...caused by the banning of the stymie".  Always makes me laugh.

KC

[Peter Galea]

Dan Kelly,
Off topic I know, but you must in the newpaper business.                                             -30-
               

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