[ed_getka]

Matt,
Given the size of the greens at Pebble, I don't think one has to play the tips to experience the difficulty of PB, unless they are belting drives 270 plus. IMHO.

[ForkaB]

Tim

Been there, done that, got the guano stained T-shirt.  Didn't realize you were so new to this site.

However, if anybody out there really wants to discuss the merits (and/or lack thereof) of TOC with the degree of passion and knowledge and honesty and empathy as was done on the recent various PB threads, I'm game to participate......

Cheers

Rich

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt:

I don't recall anyone questioning Pebble Beach as a difficult championship test from the tips for the very small percentage of golfers that can play them.

I do question why we should care very much about such players.

Shouldn't they be of far less concern than the average player?

Isn't it best if a course really shines from the middle tees?

And what possible difference does it make how someone pays their green fees?

[DRGAZ]

Look, perhaps the proper way to look at Pebble Beach is to compare to Cypress with regards to shot quality and "putting it in Kansas".  Is Pebble Beach Top 50 in Kansas, probably not, so I agree with Doug Stein.  Is Cypress Point?  Absolutely.  Would you guys on this discussion group crucify Tom Fazio is he designed a green that looked like #14 at Pebble?  Absolutely.  In the end, the surrondings of the course are tied to the way it is viewed, that simple.  For my money, however, Cypress is a better course no matter where you place it.  I do like Pebble Beach very much, and think it is in my personal Top 10, but only because it sits in the most magnificent place I have ever seen.  

[herrstein@aol.com]

By the by, I haven't heard much mention of the fact that the 14th green was designed by a local artist and golfer, not by Egan or Neville or Grant or Mackenzie....do you guys know that story?

[THuckaby2]

Tim:  AHA!  (Insert lightbulb going on above my head).  I get it now.  Yep, basically anyone can play Pebble, but getting a guest on Cypress of SFGC or even that piece of shit Olympic (hi Gib - just want to see if you're listening), that would impress.

This says nothing about the merits of the various courses, but at least I do understand the mindset of your financially-advantaged friends now!

I am such a rube.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom huckaby:

Rarely are things so simple.  

The expense account crowd I'm talking about probably had more fun on the cool parts of Pacific Grove than anywhere else in Monterey.

Everyone found the completely unpretentious nature of the place a real joy.  I doubt they would PLAN entertainment around Pacific Grove, but strangely, on one trip I can recall, it turned out to be the biggest hit.

[aclayman]

Herrstei- No I never heard anything about it. do please share?

[THuckaby2]

Tim:  You have just saved my impression of your friends.  Anyone who digs PG Muni is fine by me.

Surprisingly, I can understand this.

TH

[herrstein]

According to the Official History of PB by Neal Hotelling, the 14th green was actually designed by local artist (a painter of large oil murals) Francis McComas, who also made changes to the 1st, 3rd, and 7th, after a poorly received tournament in 1918.
He also reveals that architect W. Herbert Fowler changed the original "nondescript par 4" 18th to its current configuration as a par 5 by putting the tee where it is today.
Fowler, of course, is the British architect of Cruden Bay and Walton Heath, among others.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim & Darren:

For the record, PB is no less a super course from legitimate middle tees -- not the nonsensical front tees the management often uses to push people around the course.

I don't see weak holes given all the previous comments I have made concerning the size of the greens, their contours and the placement of bunkers in regard to each of them.

Pebble Beach suffers from too much publicity and as a result you get sometimes a backlash that other top ten courses rarely receive.

Regards,

[George Pazin]

Matt -

I hate to burst your bubble, but if stories of your prodigious length are even half true, then us poor schlubs who play the middle tees are probably experiencing something much closer to the architect's original vision than you are.  

[Tim_Weiman]

George Pazin:

I never did understand all that talk about the importance of seeing Pebble from the back tees.

What's the difference in length between the back and the middle tees (average per hole)?

How does this yardage compare to difference in tee shot length between the pro and the mid handicap player?

I'm guessing the course might be easier for the better player.

As for all this talk about "forward tees", I don't know a thing about that.  However, Adam's story about #8 is a little scary.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pete Galea,

Has anyone answered your original question, in depth ?

What holes are weak, and what makes them so ?

Thanks.

[aclayman]

Herrstein- I wonder if your year is correct since to my knowledge the course was opened in 19'  At least that's what all the logo's on all those shirts say.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I haven't gone through all the recent Pebble Beach related threads as a second year law student might, but I think Pete Gelea was the first to introduce the word "weak" in reference to the course. Interestingly, Pete did it while offering the experience of playing #9 as a rebuttal.

"Weak" isn't in the same universe as that hole!

Anyway, Pete then chose the headline "Pebble Beach is weak" to start this thread.  Not surprisingly, nobody took that bait because, I assume, people may feel the course is "overrated" but not "weak".

Catchy headlines are useful to stimulate discussion, but they can also be misleading.  I just found that out with my thread on Dan Jenkins book.  Despite making clear that my interest was in discussing the format of the book rather than what people think are America's best holes, for the most part the discussion went in the opposite direction I had hoped for.  (Posts by GeoffreyC and John McMillan being the exceptions.)  In retrospect, I think I brought it on myself with the headline I choose.

Now back to Pete's original question.

What stands out for me about Pebble is the large number of holes which are okay, but not what you would expect for a course rated among the top 2-3 in the world.  I include numbers 1,2,11,12,13,14 and 15.  Personally, I've also never been impressed with either 6 or 18, though clearly my opinion is in a small minority.

By contrast, when I start going through places like PV, CP or NGLA I can't possibly come up with that many holes which strike me as okay but nothing special.  Royal County Down is another example.  I share the conventional concern about the finishing holes being somewhat disappointing.  But, that is only a few holes, not as much as a third of the course.

By the way, my description of the 2nd and 3rd shots on #18 at Pebble as "ho hum" was probably over the top, though I've never really found those shots enjoyable to play.

Judging by the response, using headlines like "Pebble Beach is weak" makes some sense, but it may also distort discussion.  Clearly, Pebble Beach is one of the world's special courses.  I'd just be happier playing Pacific Dunes, maybe like you feel about The National.

[THuckaby2]

Well said, Tim.  I can live with all of this... but you're right, agreement isn't nearly as fun!

And re:  "By the way, my description of the 2nd and 3rd shots on #18 at Pebble as "ho hum" was probably over the top, though I've never really found those shots enjoyable to play."

Well, while my sanity is indeed always in question, I'm glad to see I have no reason to question yours!

Damn it would be fun to play Pebble with you... when you gonna be out this way?  A round with you might be worth coughing up the big bucks for.  I'll start saving my lunch money.

TH

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

I don't know when I'll make it back to Pebble.

I thought my golf adventures were over for a couple months but at the moment my mother is being a REAL trouble maker.

"Tim, did you know Aer Lingus has flights to Shannon/Dublin out of New York for $200 roundtrip?"

And I'm just about to book one.....my fifth trip there this year.

Crazy?  Maybe.

I'm now playing Ballybunion as much as Sand Ridge and its even becoming cheaper (airfare included).

[THuckaby2]

Tim, you were likely there already but you are now certainly among my pantheon of heroes.  Good man.

And ah yes... Bayllbunion... you and I have discussed that many times and that's one we can agree on for sure.

I could live there.  That's home.  I do miss the old clubhouse though...

Do let me know if you ever head west instead of east.  In the meantime, please do send me an email because I am gonna be headed east myself soon... maybe we can hook up out your way...

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com

[herrstein@aol.com]

aclayman:
without retyping the book, the year is correct. The official opening date of 1919 is mentioned in the next section; it was the "grand reopening" of sorts- they had been working on the course for some time, and the redesigns mentioned were part of the efforts to prepare the course for the 1919 opening. The original design was not met with universal acclaim, although for the most part that is the routing that is intact today. (The Neville-Grant routing).

[Bob_Huntley]

Mr. Herrstein:

Francis McComas was a good friend of Sam Morse and they enjoyed a drink together. After one session, Mr. McComas was picked up for DUI by the Pacific Grove Police Department, then, as now, rather aggressive in their tactics.

If one goes to the US Naval Post Graduate School in Monterey, formerly the old Del Monte Hotel, you can find a huge mural on the wall depicting a map of the Monterey Peninsula. You will see Pebble Beach, Carmel, Monterey, Carmel Valley, but no Pacific Grove. He wiped them out.

[Peter Galea]

Tim,
Yes, I used the term weak, in response to your inital posting PB vs. PD; where you stated that "Pebble Beach had a number of holes that were nothing special". I disagree with that. It's a matter of semantics, I guess. Merriam Webster defines weak as: 1. lacking strength. Was is a stretch for me to infer "nothing special" implies weak? I don't think so.

Patrick, My question has not been answered. I don't think there is a hole at Pebble that is "nothing special", lacking strength or weak from any set of tees.

Maybe others should look at PB with "new" eyes.

Just my opinion.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pete Gelea:

I'm far from an expert on the English language, so I don't know if saying something is "nothing special" means it is "weak".

But, if pushed I would probably say that calling something "weak" goes well beyond calling it "nothing special".

But, let's not debate language.

You suggest to Pat Mucci that your "question" had not been answered.  Actually, it looks like you initially asked two questions:

WHICH holes at PB were "weak"?

And why?

I'm assuming you are satisfied that the first part of your question has been answered.

Is that correct?

[Peter Galea]

Tim,

I won't debate language either, however; many have agreed that the ocean holes at PB are "strong". In context it follows that compared to those holes - the "nothing special" holes mean "weak" to me.

People have offered their opinion of holes they feel are "less than". I fail to see their logic, but they are entitled to their opinion. Mine has not changed.

[Tim_Weiman]

Pete Gelea:

Sounds like we've reached the point of agreeing to disagree.

Cool.

Actually, while PB may not be a personal favorite, I feel damn fortunate to be playing any of the venues we've discussed.

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