[Bill_McBride]

The 4th could be one of the best short par 4s anywhere.  First you have to hit a long iron or fairway wood over those bunkers. No carry no luck.  The first time I played the hole (1972, green fee maybe $25, carried bag) I hit good three wood to 110. The pin was back right and I hit what felt like a super PW. Got up to the green looking for a putt inside 20'.  No ball - it had flown just right and I guess was over the bunker and down on the beach!  I agree that if the entire course were the inland holes it would be a pretty good parkland course, but the ebb and flow of the routing, back and forth to water and inland, is incredible, perhaps the most innovative routing ever designed. To me that's why top 5 is a given for Pebble.

[kilfara]

Bob, it was Tom Doak who called the 12th "a real mutt". You'll have to ask him to justify the epithet, not me.  

Cheers,
Darren

[aclayman]

Tim, I have never seen anyone walk off the 18th green and been disapointed.

Bob, Perhaps you could quantify, for us all, why it is that PB is your prefered course to it's exclusive neighbor?

Darren- I know of several stories about people who walk off the TOC and are completly disapointed. Without reverting to the fact that they may not "get it" why do you think that is?

[ed_getka]

Adam,
Thanks for the descriptions of the greens. That is exactly what I was looking for. If you have time do the rest, the next time I play there I won't need a caddy. I was aware of the features of #15, but not #7 as much.

[kilfara]

Adam,

Because people are stupid?  

Many people think that to have a truly spectacular golf course, you have to have a spectacular setting. If you came to believe that, and then was told that TOC was one of the greatest courses in the world, wouldn't you be underwhelmed? In its simplest terms, the cliffs and the sea at Pebble are pretty, so people with not an iota of discriminating taste in golf course architecture can see that PB has merit. The Old Course isn't particularly pretty, so to appreciate it, you have to know something about the art which it singlehandedly founded (or at least to appreciate the history behind that sentence).

Cheers,
Darren

[herrstein]

Well, Patrick, I don't see how I can satisfy both requests in your most recent post:
"Not to make you post a long response, could you please list those 50 courses you think are better than Pebble."
It seems that no matter what I say, if I do not consider Pebble in the Top 50 taken away from its incomparable setting- and I point out that in my opinion, GIVEN its incomparable setting, it's definitely in my top 5- I will not satisfy those who do not share my opinion. So I won't try. But  let's just take NGLA , SFGC, CP, Crystal Downs, Pinehurst #2, Pine Valley, or practically any of the top 10 classic and plop them in Kansas ON THE SAME TERRAIN  and I will take them. Add some of the great moderns- like Sand Hills in Nebraska (which may as well be Kansas) which I have not seen, and you tell me honestly that there are not a good 40 or 50 ahead of Pebble in terms of the shots required to play the course. It's just not an overwhelming mix of holes.
All that said- where it is, in the conditions that usually prevail- I will play it every day for the rest of my life (as long as I can slip over to Cypress every now and then.)

[aclayman]

Darren I think a more politically correct answer is needed especially from your publishers perspective.  

Golf is way more than it's architecture!

And to assume the few who value it(archie) are smart and the rest stupid is what I asked you to avoid.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

For what's it worth -- when people play from other than the maximum back tees you are playing a lesser version of the course the architect designed. Does that mean the lesser version is inadequate? Not the least!

It just means the overall demands have been scaled back accordingly in order to accomodate the higher handicap player.

You have taken my comment of "lesser version" to mean inferior. That is not my defintion -- it's more of your spin on my words.

Darren:

I'll say it again -- how many courses are just over 6,700 yards like PB, with greens tiny to hit and difficult to putt that still stand at the top of the class. When you cite Doak as an authority I will concede his knowledge and background but I'll also mention that none other than Nicklaus, you know the Golden Bear, holder of 18 major championships himself, as said if he had but one course to spend eternity playing it would be PEBBLE BEACH!!! (Even if some might think the 12th as a mutt).

Regards,

[kilfara]

Matt,

Jack Nicklaus is entitled to his opinion. So am I. Having seen some of the sorts of golf courses which Nicklaus's opinions about golf course architecture have produced, and having read Tom Doak and seen his product at Pacific Dunes, I'm more likely to side with Doak's expert opinion than Nicklaus's on a question of golf course architecture. Is that fair?

Adam, of course golf is more than its architecture. But we've been trying to discuss the the architectural merits of Pebble Beach, which is why I've been sticking to my guns.

I hope the service I'm providing as Devil's Advocate have been welcome.  

Cheers,
Darren

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

The "lessor version" of Pebble Beach - the course most people play - is not "inadequate".  As Darren points out, no one is disputing that Pebble Beach is one of the world's great courses.

I just think it is a bit odd to defend a course by suggesting criticism must come from people playing the middle tees.

Wouldn't it make more sense to discount the views of people playing the back tees?

[aclayman]

Tim, The reality right now is that because of Clint's refusal to play there, because of slow play, the course is setup differently to assist the chops.

First they introduced the gold tees, I call them ego tees. They are basically the old white plates but the whites have been moved up. IMHO this was done so those too sensitive and want to play the blues but don't have the index, will have an out without having to lower themselves to white tees. (all ego)
But the biggest shock is that only those who play the blues can play the 8th from the lower tee. I cannot imagine coming to the greatest par four on the planet and having to miss that blind tee shot.

[Tim_Weiman]

aclayman:

I can't imagine anyone playing #8 from anywhere but what you call the "lower" tees.

When did that start?

FYI, I was a total wimp the first time I played the hole.  From the middle of the fairway I had about 185 yards and a five iron in my hands.

Then, I got scared. Rejecting all other options, I pulled out my trusty five wood and blasted it over the green.  It seemed like a good idea, until I found my ball.

But, I got extremely lucky leaving my open face sand wedge about six feet from the hole with a nice up hill putt.

And I made it!

No doubt you would never recommend anyone doing what I did.  But, that was fifteen years ago and I still remember exactly what went through my mind with each shot.

By the way, on the next hole (#9), I got rather upset with my caddy.  Lacking the nerve to take my ball towards the right side of the green (and letting the wind bring it in), I asked him if there was any trouble short and left.

No there wasn't, he told me.

Wrong......double boggie!

[Matt_Ward]

Darren:

With all due respect -- I'll take the Golden Bear's assessment of PB over Doak notwithstanding Jack's so-so reputation as an architect.

Kudos -- You're doing just great as a Devil's Advocate!

Tim:

If you don't play PB from the back tees you really have not played PB in my mind. If you play from the middle or front tees, in my opinion, that is a lesser version of the ultimate design from Jack Neville and Douglas Grant.

Played from the back tees you get to see the ultimate version of what PB is all about. I just get so sick and tired of seeing how management rips people off with the high green fee and FORCES you to play from teeing areas that are nearly at the start of any fairway. That is not PB -- it is nothing more than GET'EM OUT, GET'EM IN TYPE GOLF!

Unfortunately, management has indeed influenced many people by this ill-considered set-up of PB on a daily basis. I guess the reasons for management doing this is because of all the schelps who go out there for the first time with rented Callaway Clubs and photo equipment and proceed to slog along for 6 plus hours while the parade simply backs up!!!

[aclayman]

Tim- The new tees went in a couple of years ago.

Great up and down! The truth is that the shot plays approx. 8 yds short because of the downhill. So your 185 was more like 177.
As for nine, The first time I played it I hit what was for me my best drive with 195 remaing and I pured a 3 iron right where I wanted it at the right edge of the bunker with a slight fade that still ended up in that bunker. I hit a big explosion shot that squirted right to the rough just off the collar and chipped in for my par. The truth is that the downslope that is in front of that bunker is slanted so anything close, ends up in it. The proper play is if your gonna miss the green do it to the front right apron.
Who was your caddie? If it was summertime the likelyhood of getting a part-timer is high.

Matt- Don't you think that the statement above is a bit harsh. If you hit your avg. drive 260 and I hit mine 220 aren't we playing the same course if there is a 40 yd diferential in tees?

[Tim_Weiman]

aclayman:

Yes, that downhill calculation for #8 went threw my mind. But, I couldn't figure out the wind and became unsure how to play the shot.  I didn't want to forever remember falling short the first time I played the hole, so I just went for a bigger gun.

Tom Huckaby:

Rounds at CP, SFGC, Pasatiempo or even Olympic caught more interest than going back to Pebble.

Rich Goodale:

I certainly can't argue that we had enough beers at Bandon.  Weren't you out on the links for more golf?

As for complaints about St Andrews, no I haven't heard the term "overrated" nearly as often as with Pebble.

Matt Ward:

Imagine the golfer who hits his drives 220 yards.  What is he missing by playing the middle tees?

[THuckaby2]

Now wait a second, Tim - you have me confused.  I thought you said your "unlimited expense account" friends didn't have access to the private clubs, no matter how much money???

I'd grant that free access to Cypress might make some find Pebble less incredible.. but Mr. Huntley's take on Pebble speaks volumes to me on that account.  In any case, I could understand it.  I'll have to take their word for SFGC, never got inside those gates.  As for Olympic, no offense to the great Armenian but one would have to be masochistic indeed to prefer a round there to one at Pebble.  I doubt the Armenian himself would even say this... and Pasatiempo, well, again, wonderful course but preferring it to Pebble?  Hmmmmm....

Oh well, this is an entirely different mindset, one I can only speculate on.

God help guys like that if they're forced to play our NORMAL NorCal courses...

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Tim & acalyman:

I just think playing PB from the tips will truly show how great PB is.

Gentlemen, the course is only 6,700 yards from the tips! We are not talking about a layout that plays 7000+ yards.

When you see the types of approach shots you must play from the tips you will appreciate even more so how truly small the greens are at PB. Ditto the landing zones and angle of attack you are left with when playing the course from this distance.

When people say PB is weak or has "weak holes" or, however, else one wants to spin it, you have a course of high quality. I have had issues with course management in years past and clearly it has impacted the view of many people who have played the course when greens were shaggy, play took six hours or more and on-site staff was cranky. At $350 plus to play there should be no excuses ever!

If people prefer to play the course from middle or front tees (what I define the "lesser version") that's there right to do so. But, I say judge PB from its maximum product which is the tips. Holes that many consider weak aren't really weak -- they just present scoring opportunities that you had best take advantage of before encountering the more demanding ones to follow.

Just a humble opinion ...

[kilfara]

Matt, your position in this last post is contrary, I'd have thought, to the entire philosophy of having multiple tees on a golf course. A great course (and, for that matter, a good course) shouldn't be inferior from one set of tees relative to another. Everyone should play the set of tees that they're comfortable with, a policy which in theory should produce approach shots which are fairly similar for every golfer.

Too, as far as I can tell, nobody on this list has taken Pebble to task for being too easy. People (myself included) have criticized the blandness of some of the holes; hitting a four-iron into a green instead of a seven-iron, or a seven-iron instead of a wedge, isn't really going change my opinion of it unless I'm highly impressionable. (As you can probably tell by now, I'm not!)  

Cheers,
Darren

[Tim_Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

All I'm saying is that Pebble never required anything but money.  By contrast you couldn't simply whip out an AMEX and play the private venues I mentioned.  Hence, if you realy wanted to entertain and impress people, Pebble was not the place to go.

Matt Ward:

I still don't get why I should judge Pebble or any other course from the tips.  Those tees aren't relevant for the vast majority of players - they can't possibly play them.

Aren't the tips the LEAST important place to judge a course from?

[ForkaB]

Tim

Those who know me well will be aghast to learn that I passed up a bevy for my third 18 holes of golf.  Please do not tell me that you guys found the "bunker" at Bandon?  From what I understand from others, my missing of this was an incredible faux pas on my part.

PS--I just did a couple of Ran Celebrity Death Matches--TOC vs. PB and TOC vs. PD.  Just of fun, of course.  Nevertheless, in both cases the old lady never even made it to her 14th (where she might have had a chance for a couple of wins) before being closed out.  She'll win most 19th's, however, if she ever manages to get there.......

[Gib_Papazian]

Tim, "or even Olympic." Yeah, that's us, just an also-ran track . . .

[Tim_Weiman]

Gib:

It sounds like I managed to offend the entire West Coast crowd.

Actually, I'm quite fond of the Olympic Club, both the club and the courses.

My comment to TH was only meant to say that there were several courses my West Coast friends enjoyed visiting and playing more than Pebble, including Olympic.

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich:

Tommy N has been far too quiet.

Why don't you start a new thread on your matches and breath new life into this place?

Just imagine the headline "St Andrews is weak".

Or maybe "Does St Andrews deserve a Top 50 ranking?"

Who knows, maybe someone will even argue the 14th hole is boring.........

[aclayman]

Matt- I have been fortunate enough to play PB from the tips in competition. Not a nassau w/ buddies but against the old courses caddies. I can tell you emphatically that it wasn't even fair. Those lads were good golfers but to have make the carries from the plates was near to imposs. I happened to have a great driving day and won easily 6&5.

I have never heard ANYONE say that Pebble was overated following the completion of their round. I myself made an early judgement that even with all the hyperbole, Pebble is one of the few THINGS in life that doesn't let you down.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim & Darren:

If you think Pebble has weak holes or is weak period you may be making that assertion from middle or front tees. That is not the case from the tips. All of those previously mentioned "weak: holes carry another perspective from the back.

If you want to say does Pebble present the same unique challenges from all teeing positions that's another interesting thread.

Darren:

The theory you present does not work in practice simply because landing areas may be angled differently from other tee positions and the actual distance you must play to approach a green can be vastly different thereby the loft of the shot may not hold as quickly or easily as one which is closer to the target.

I'm still dumbfounded that people have issue with Pebble Beach from the tips when the course is just over 6,700 yards!
Gentlemen -- do you need to play the course from the beginning of the fairways?

Please do not reference the average chopper who possesses only one key ingredient -- a Visa or Mastercard to play the course. I don't know of any forward tee position that can handle a player who could not hit Kansas from the Oklahoma state line.

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