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Matt_Ward

Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2001, 10:49:00 AM »
On the public ledger I'd have to add the following:

The first three holes on Bethpage Black. Only until you stand on the 4th tee does the Black course really come to life.

The 18th used to be one of my favorite lackluster holes, but I'm not a real big fan of it even now -- though Rees Jones did as best as he could.

On the private side -- the two par-5's on WF West (#5 and #12) / not counting the 9th and 16th as par-5's -- they just seem to be really filler for the holes that bracket them.

The interior holes on Baltusrol Lower (#8 through #13). They're good, but in my opinion, don't raise the pulse.

I would also add the 18th at Somerset Hills and Cypress Point. Talk about dull finishers!

I'll add a few more momentarily.

Regards,

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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »
The 18th at Cypress, an obstacle course.
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2001, 04:25:00 PM »
Matt Ward:

I agree with your point about Bethpage Black.  There is no reason to get too excited by the first three holes, though #1 seems okay to get a round started.

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Tim Weiman

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2001, 06:50:00 PM »
#12 at Garden City. How did this hole land here?
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John_D._Bernhardt

Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2001, 07:32:00 PM »
Rich 13 and 15 are very good holes infact 13 is in my mind a underrated hole that should be studied not ridiculed. Of course I am speaking of the PB we are supposed to avoid. Yes Bob I agree that 18 at cypress is a very poor hole while i do like the green area very much.
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2001, 05:59:00 AM »
Cypress Point #10. If someone could explain the architectural merit of this hole I would appreciate it. Maybe its just a let down after #8&9.
Pasatiempo #17. The green is very tricky to putt but otherwise it is a straightaway par 4. Again any explanations of what I am missing would be helpful.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Peter Galea

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Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2001, 06:07:00 AM »
I agree Ed, re: Passy 17.
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"chief sherpa"

TEPaul

Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2001, 06:18:00 AM »
#17 Royal County Down is not a good hole until you get about 20 yards from the green. The green itself is excellent. This 3/4 of one hole is the only weakness on the entire course, in my opinion.

The last 2/3 of #17 Royal Portrush is not very interesting although the drive is wholly unique. Some say #18 Royal Portrush is not much good but I don't really agree, I think it's just fine although it is wholly  different in look and playability from the first sixteen holes. Some would say #18 is "out of character". I would rather call it variety and of course like most of the holes of these types of courses the wind makes it play to a very large spectrum.

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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2001, 06:53:00 AM »
I've heard a number of commentators say that Cypress Point is 17 terrific holes -- and one stinker, the 18th.

I haven't played it. Have only seen those wonderful pictures of 15, 16, 17.

What's 18 like? Why is it such an inferior hole? And why did Mackenzie allow himself to finish on such a low note?

On a more general note: I've noticed a LOT of inferior 18s. Is that because the owners site the clubhouse before the architects get to route the course?

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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2001, 09:22:00 AM »
Mackenzie didn't do such a bad job on #18, somebody changed the hole somewhere along the way. Geoff Shackleford's book about Cypress shows a photo of the original hole. 'The routing is the same I believe, but all the bunkering that was there originally is now gone. Without the bunkering #18 is seemingly a forest of Cypress trees without a clear indication of where to go off the tee. The other drawback of the hole which is a dogleg right is the uphill approach, such that the green surface is not visible. The contour of the green makes for tough putts from above the hole. It isn't such a bad hole IMO, but just suffers from the glorious holes that precede it.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick_Mucci

Lackluster Holes on Great Courses
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2001, 10:26:00 AM »
Shooter,

It's a sad story.

In the mid 60's RTJ was commissioned to alter the hole.

No one at GCGC seems to have a clear handle on why the change was made, though some allude to the maintainance difficulties associated with the mounding within the green.

Recently, I have tried to convince the club to restore the hole to as close as possible to the pre 60's change, with the mounds located to the exterior of the green.

Sadly, some members and some green committee members are reluctant to make more than modest changes, primarily because recent changes to the 5th and 14th green didn't turn out so well.

Even Tom Doak, who listed the hole in his book, as one of the greatest 19 golf holes no longer in existance, has been reluctant to unilaterally advocate, endorse and support the return of the hole to its original or pre 60's design.

This has certainly been one of the most frustrating, non-playing, golf experiences of my life.  

Everyone who sees the situation clamors for the change, yet resistance comes from a variety of sources, including some you would never guess.

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