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Patrick_Mucci

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« on: October 02, 2001, 11:55:00 AM »
I understand that years ago, TOC used to alternate play on a monthly basis, with the course being played in its present hole rotation, and in a reverse configuration.

Has anyone played the reverse configuration ?

What can you tell us about the reverse course?


Charles_P.

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2001, 12:34:00 PM »
Like you, I've heard of this practice, but it was my impression was that "years ago" meant back in Old Tom's day.  Your question piqued my curiosity, so I tried to find the answer.  As best I can tell, this practice took place from the 1830s-70s.  Here's a link:
http://www.randa.org/st_andrews/old_course.sps

Charles_P.

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2001, 01:04:00 PM »
I should have read my own link more carefully; in modern times, the opposite routing has been played on a few occasions during the winters.

ed_getka

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2001, 01:16:00 PM »
My understanding is it happens occasionally each year, but I don't believe there is any set rotation to have the reverse course in play. Tom Doak may know since he caddied there for awhile when he was finishing school.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

John_Conley

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
My understanding is that it was done one month each year in the winter months, possibly January.  You will no doubt get the answer from someone else.

So why am I posting?  Another chance for me to tout DOUBLE EAGLE in Eagle Bend, MN.  This Joel Goldstrand designed 9-hole is pretty cool.  They reverse odd-even, but I'm willing to bet you couldn't tell that they could do this if you didn't know before you played it.

I have read that Goldstrand tried this again at FOX HOLLOW in Rogers for their 3rd nine, but I don't know if this is open yet.


ForkaB

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2001, 01:57:00 PM »
My understanding is that the R&A plays at least one competition each year on hte "reverse" course.  Perhaps some of the Members posting or lurking on here could elucidate.

I personally think that the reverse 18 might be vastly superior to the current layout.  Can you imagine, for example, trying to play th Road Hole as the 1st with a very narrow tee shot down what is now the right side of the current 18th?  How about the "reversed" 17th?  An "Alps" style hole with the current 1st green sitting 50 yards beyond what is now the hillock obscuring the shot on the current 2nd tee, and with the Swilcan burn waiting behind?  And, a driveable 18th with the Valley of Sin straight in front of you and the real possibility of hooking your drive OB into the sitting room of the R&A if you overcook it?

Just WHO was responsible for the butchering of this great course in the mid 1850's!


kilfara

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2001, 01:58:00 PM »
During my academic year in St. Andrews (mid-September to mid-June, 1995-96), I didn't hear a whisper about the Old Course being played in reverse in the present day. Nor have I since, nor did I before. Maybe it happens once in a very blue moon on ultra-special occasions (or maybe it happens during the Autumn Medal occasionally, when TOC is closed for outsiders), but we're talking about a VERY rare thing, here.

Cheers,
Darren


Paul_Daley

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2001, 02:58:00 PM »
Amazingly, the Open Championship has been played over the Reverse Course - just once in the early days.

When playing the Reverse Course, golfers negotiate more broken-ground and hazards than conventionally. Word-of-mouth suggests it is a more demanding test of golf.  


Patrick_Mucci

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2001, 03:59:00 PM »
I had heard that the order of play was almost the exact opposite, and many bunkers thought to be out of play on the current play of the course, were perfectly situated on the reverse course.

I'm most curious on the sequence of holes, and how the reverse course plays.


Bill_McBride

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2001, 04:09:00 PM »
I haven't even played it the normal way yet, but won't give up hope!

Tom_Doak

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2001, 05:50:00 PM »
When I lived in St. Andrews in 1982, I asked Walter Woods if they ever played the Old Course backwards anymore, and he said they hadn't done it for many years before he got there.

However, one winter after that, they did play it backwards for a month.

I have walked it backwards but not played it that way.  Several of the holes are weird, with forced carries over heather to the greens.  I suspect there was less heather and more fairway when they played it backwards more often.

On 2-3 holes it looked like the only way to play the hole would be to drive across into the right-hand fairway, but I could be wrong.


Tasmanian Dunes

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2001, 06:50:00 PM »
The last time the course was officially played in reverse for tournament golf was in the early-mid 1980's.  It rests a lot of the landing areas and green entrys which suffer such heavy traffic the rest of the year.

Yes, a lot of the bunkers that are currently out of play are very much in play when played in reverse.  I worked in the Road Hole Bar atop the Old Course Hotel in 1995 and 2000, and as we would often not close the bar until 4:30-5am, by which time the sun had already risen, me and a few other barstaff often ventured out for golf before the greenkeeping staff arrived to kick us off.

We decided to make this more interesting on many occassions by playing the course in reverse.  I would say that a highlight hole is indeed the 17th, teeing from near the scholars bunkers driving up short of 'old' train sheds, and hitting a totally blind shot into the 16th green, carrying some fierce bunkers.  However, this is only dictated by todays mowing, otherwise we would hit out right up towards that bunker on the left of the 2nd fairway (its name eludes me- Sahara?). I think playing the long hole out, in reverse was always brilliant, that 4th green is just impossible from the other side even with a short punch shot.  Other stand outs include playing the 12th in reverse to the 11th green, the ball has to be kept left close to the eden estuary (possibly the only time it comes into play) to allow any running entry by the bunkers to a severely away sloping green.  We never played more than 16 holes (to the 2nd green down the 3rd fairway- a great hole as the bunkers right in front of third tee come into play) before getting smilingly kicked off, but i suspect the reverse 18th played exactly the same, and 17 would have been an interesting run in shot through the bumps at the back of the 1st green.

There are a lot more forced carries, but i suspect that is a result of the maintenance practices of recent years- allowing some areas to grow, and cutting back others. For example playing to the 5th green from the 6th fairway is a totally blind shot over gorse, so to get an angle in you hit it out to the 13th fairway, flirting with hidden bunkers.  Maybe i am wrong and the reason TOC is like it is now is because the reverse version was just too hard!  A pure thrill to play all the same.  I actually wrote to the Links Trust asking why instead of closing the course, could they not revert to the reverse 18 and rest the stressed areas, but they replied that the course needed a full rest.  Or perhaps the administrators just needed their 3 weeks playing golf in the sunny Algarve!

It all seems a long way from Tasmania now.

greg@barnbougledunes.com


ForkaB

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2001, 08:27:00 AM »
Greg

We now know that Barnbougledunes is in good hands!  Great stuff about TOC and if you, Doak, et.al. or whomever can build something in Tasmania that has the flexibility of TOC (and a select few other great links) the world (or at least this little corner of it called GCA) will beat a path to your door--IF you let us play it backwards, forwards, sideways, upside and down (Isn't that an old Yardbirds Song? )

Rich

PS--hope I didn't stiff you when I stayed at the TOC Hotel in Feb.. 2000.........


Paul_Daley

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2001, 02:15:00 AM »
Young Turk:

Super explanation, passion simply pouring off the keypad.

Cheers.


T_MacWood

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2001, 05:49:00 AM »
From what I understand play on the Old Course alternated between the left-hand and right-hand course every other week through WWI, except during the high season when the right hand course was used exclusively. Old Tom Morris felt it prevented the course from getting worn out. The only time the left-hand course was utilized for a Championship, that I know of, was for the 1886 Amateur Championship won by Horace Hutchinson. Evidently that particular Championship fell on one of the alternating weeks and for whatever reason the R&A chose not to convert the course back to the traditional right-hand championship set up.

Paul_Daley

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2001, 01:59:00 PM »
Tom:

Thanks for the info about the Reverse course being used once for the Amateur. It was also used once for the Open, and I'm trying to ascertain which year that was.


Dennis_Harwood

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2001, 11:03:00 PM »
Several years ago I saw the outline of the "reversed" Old Course (In the Old Course Hotel I believe, but it may have been in some other building near the course)--

That routing had no changes in the 1st, 17th and 18th holes--Starting with the second tee however that tee was to the left of the first green and then play was to the left flagstick positions on all the double greens

Recalling that under the Rules, until Mid last century(1952), the putting green was set distance from the hole--[originally 5 club lengths and then 20 yards]--and the teeing ground was within a specific distance from the hole just completed-

At St Andrews, where play was on a narrow strip of land with golfers going "out" and coming "in" the "Prepared Area" was the putting areas on each side of that strip with the "teeing ground" in the middle--which areas(greens on each side and teeing areas in the middle) eventually evolved into double greens--  The teeing area in the middle, on the old routings I have seen, were the shared areas, located generally in the middle of what are now the double greens.

However, with heavier play and safety concerns tees began to be located further from the hole just played and not "shared"


Greg_Ramsay

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2001, 04:41:00 PM »
Dennis, that is a great post, where did you glean that information from?  It makes a lot of sense, going right back to the days when the golfer would tee up 2 clublengths from the rabbithole with the gull feather in it!  Would you have seen that map in the Jigger Inn by the Old Course hotel?

As for you Rich, when you were in St.A's in Feb 2000, i was working in Florida for a golf mgmt firm, trying to get out of jail as the car i had bought turned out to be stolen and I got arrested!  

I did enjoy the Dye courses at TPC Village at Port St Lucie and at Disneyland.  Left Fazio for dead.


Dennis_Harwood

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2001, 09:14:00 PM »
Greg--Jigger Inn rings a bell--or, the pub and restaurant on corner of the street behind the 18th where they serve the great "Cockaleekie" soup.

If you have a copy of the World Atlas of Golf, their drawing of TOC at pages 38 and 39, showing the bunker locations, gives a great depiction of how the bunkers would have played in a "reverse routing" situation on holes 2 through 16--


John_Conley

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TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2001, 05:33:00 AM »
Last night on the Golf Channel, Kessler was interviewing Scott Hoch and the conversation turned to his opinion of the Old Course.  Hoch said he'd probably like it just fine played backwards, so you could see all of the bunkering.  He didn't like that his caddy told him to play left into the incoming fairway on several holes.  It just didn't make sense to him to have to play away from the line.

Hoch was clever and candid as always, and even suggested we could make a lot of our courses "great" if we played them backwards to you couldn't see the trouble.


John Bernhardt

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2001, 07:01:00 AM »
thanks for this wonderful post. i walked the course backward last month more for the pleasure of seeing how the holes set up rather than the thought of playing TOC that way.

Bill Gustafson

TOC, St Andrews-Has anyone played it backwards
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2001, 09:01:00 PM »
  I had the pleasure of playing TOC in Sep. 1998.  I walked the course forward, but I definately played the golf course backwards.
     

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