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Bill_Spellman

Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« on: October 13, 2001, 06:40:00 AM »
It is my understanding (rumor)that Ross had a multi level design firm, somewhat like some modern architects, that would design a course by mail, never having seen the site and would submit a routing plan. True? not true? comments

RobertWalker

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2001, 08:28:00 PM »
Bill,
I suspect that you are right. But, I  suspect that Ross must have great communication skills, because his courses are consistently shaped.
(Did we meet at the Bill Kittleman roast and dinner in November 1996)

Ed_Baker

Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »
Bill,

An interesting comparison can be done by going to the Ross Society web site which lists his body of work.An asterisk is included on "confirmed on site" courses.

The quality of those courses is well above average,particularly the routing.Hatch and McGovern his long time associates were amazingly consistent in producing Ross'renderings on the ground. However,there are enough courses that are amoung the best of Ross' work where one could make the case that his "mail in" courses were not of the same quality as the ones he was on site.

Given the travel and time constraints of the era in which he designed,there would be little logical doubt that he would have had to "mail" a few in.


Oat

Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2001, 10:15:00 AM »
Lumps:

See Bradley Klein's new book on Ross (call me for the title if you need to).

You're really getting into this, aren't you?

Sid


Bill_Spellman

Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2001, 06:35:00 AM »
We most likely did meet at "The Roast of the K". I must apologize, please give me more info on you to shake up the middle aged memory bank. I must say that the weekend was one of my favorites, with the dinner on Friday and the round at Merion the next day.
The look on Bill's face was priceless.

Mike_Cirba

Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2001, 07:38:00 AM »
Bill,

Ross clearly did some work as "paper jobs", laying out routings on topo maps, and perhaps sending an assistant to get things off on the right foot.

One interesting example I've played is a nine-holer in Coopersburg, PA called Tumblebrook GC.  

They have the original Ross layout preserved in the very modest clubhouse, and reproduce it on the front of the scorecard.  Unfortunately, it's also clear from playing the course that Mr. Ross probably had very little do with what took place during construction.


Brad Klein

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2001, 04:32:00 PM »
Best guess, as far as I could roughly figure, is that Ross never saw/visited about 20 percent of the courses he is properly credited with "designing." About just over half he saw once or twice, often well before construction. That leaves about 1/3rd he visited or stayed around long enough to see at various stages of construction.

I worked hard to get this number and could never be certain, but at least even when he did a paper layout he had his design associates doing much if not most of the work, and they thought a lot like him anyway.


Steve Sayers

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2001, 05:08:00 PM »
Brad:

In your effort to verify the number of courses Ross saw/visited, what source(s) did you use in addition to the Tufts Archive?  

The reason for my question is I am in the process of verifying the history of LuLu Country Club.  Unfortunately the Tufts Archives only has a date (1912) and a name with respect to LuLu.  From What I gather, Ross was brought in 1909 to work on a 9-hole layout (expanded to 18 by Ross in 1918).  Information in your new book contradicts this as you state that Ross worked on no new courses in 1909 and 1910.

Any direction you can provide on where to verify if Ross was on site at LuLu (and what year)would be greatly appreciated.


Craig_Rokke

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2001, 05:26:00 PM »
Steve-
Finegan's book implies that Ross visited Lu Lu in 1909 to lay out 9 holes. I'm no Ross expert, but I would think that a course laid out that early in Ross's career, his first effort in PA, would surely have involved at least a site visit, probably more.

RobertWalker

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »
Bill,
I took the group picture (hope Dave Waldmann sent you one). It was a great night, and I feel lucky to be able to spend time with Bill Kittleman. He is a genius, and an expert on anything that he wants to be.

Steve Sayers

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2001, 05:47:00 PM »
Craig:

I agree however, I believe the information regarding LuLu in Finegan's book comes from the history of LuLu as written by LuLu.  

The 1909 date may be correct and Ross would have had a site visit; however, I am hoping to find confirmation.

Then again, assuming Brad Klein is correct in that Ross worked on no new courses in 1909 and 1910, perhaps LuLu’s origins are earlier then 1909.

Thank you for your input.

Steve


Ron_Whitten

Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2001, 02:47:00 PM »
That "confirmed on site" asterisk in the Ross Society materials (and, I believe, in Brad's fine book, too) orignally came from research by the late W. Pete Jones, who spent the last year's of his life compiling a variety of lists of Donald Ross designs. My recollection was that he based many of his "confirmed on site" notations on examination of hole-by-hole diagram cards in the Tufts Archives. If they corresponded with Ross' handwriting, Pete concluded Ross had actually designed holes on site.
 I'm not sure I agree with Pete's methodology. Ross was so good at reading topos and laying out courses site unseen, it's certainly conceivable that he could have sketched out individual holes from the luxury of his Rhode Island stuffed chair just as easily. Plus, if you look through enough of the old hole diagrams in the Tufts, you start to see some of the same holes (same basic bunkering, same strategies) on many different courses. Old Donald could well have gone back to the drawer and pulled out what worked elsewhere, just like present-day architects sometimes do.
 After nearly 30 years of research in this subject, I can tell you that it's sometimes impossible to confirm whether Ross visited a particular site during design or construction. Occasionally, club minutes indicate such, but mostly they just indicate payment to the architect. Occasionally, a newspaper account will prove Ross was really there in the flesh, but there are far too few of those articles. There is, of course, the famous Aronimink film showing him waving his cigar around, but we have to take it on faith that that's indeed the location of the present Aronimink course.

Brad Klein

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2001, 04:22:00 AM »
Good basic point, Ron, though I have a tiny question about your reference to "the luxury of Rhode Island stuffed chair." Maybe that's a chair style, but of courses Ross didn't actually move to (that summer house in) RI until Sept. 1925!

On a more important note, I seriously doubt whether he did any design by map/topo that early in his career without benefit of a site visit. 1909-1910 was not a real busy time on the road for him, however, because his wife was pregnant throughout 1909, he spent the entire summer of 1910 in Scotland, and then he changed jobs to Essex CC that winter. But I can't pinpoint right now whether the LuLu dating is the year he got the assignment, the year he visited, or the year the work was done.

I'll be at Tufts tom'w and will look it up, but that's my basic source on this one, and frankly, I did not consult LuLu's own records on it.


TEPaul

Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2001, 06:33:00 AM »
Interesting thoughts by Brad Klein and Ron Whitten on how to determine if Ross spent time on various sites. I've never been to the Tufts archives (Givens Library section (?) although I have spoken to Khris a number of times).

If there is something there to prove he spent time on a various site that would be very indicative, I would think, but failing that, anyone, no matter how well they think they know Ross, is into just making assumptions.

The only other way to prove he was on site is to have that validated by club records or minutes. Receipts don't really do that.

Gulph Mills G.C. (Ross 1916-1919) has a little book by Willing Patterson that is basically a history of the club from 1916-1976 that used the club minutes to reconstruct not only the construction of the course but everything else that followed until 1976. GMGC had a member who spent full time with the construction of the course and his correspondence in conjunction with the Board Minutes (all the committees reporting) is clear indication that Ross spent three days on the site in the beginning. He then returned about ten years later for a reanalysis of the golf course and made various recommendations on about 2/3 of the holes, most of which were followed. This kind of evidence is the best proof you can have that Ross was there.

It's also interesting what Ron says about Ross possibly doing topo designs and never actually visiting a site. I very much believe that! The best evidence of that is Ross's career routing theme! It is extremely identifiable with almost every Ross course I've ever seen. It seems also to be a theme that never really changed throughout his long career.

Basically that routing theme was to identify every single high tee, valley fairway, and high green site any property had to offer. This does not mean that every hole was this way because of course it couldn't be (if you understand anything about routing). But the fact is that most of his courses have as much of this as the site could ever offer. How did this happen? My feeling is Ross would analyze the topos, identify the elevation numbers, measure (adjusting for scale) and with the high tee sites (or green sites) he would simply count up and down the contour elevation lines and rout and build as many holes according to this theme as he could. Sometimes understanding how elevation lines swing here and there from uphill and downhill into sidehill and side slope is a little tricky but obviously Donald was very good at this, very practiced and experienced! And when he came to the holes that needed to "connect" to this basic routing theme that were not of this type topography he was very good at that too.

Ron might be right that Ross sort of pulled holes out of the drawer when he saw similarities on a topo but I think Ross was quite clever about that too. When Ross recognized the topographic similarities he had the good sense to rearrange the "notes" or "features" (all the architectural elements available to him--bunkers, green shapes and contours, orientations etc, etc to disguise those basic hole similarities!

There are some general similarities of playability to this theme on so many Ross courses. The theme has always had the affect of making his courses play longer! Ross was a high tee, valley and high green site designer--there is no doubt in my mind about that. His holes that run ridges are much rarer and are actually quite interesting because they are rarer. Best example might be Seminole's #4! From tee through green it's a basic but brilliant design! More proof that Donald Ross was very very good!


BCrosby

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Courses "Stamped Out Mass Production" by Ross?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2001, 07:48:00 AM »
Tom -

Your point about Ross courses playing longer than they appear reminded me of a story about the Athens CC.

Bobby Jones played an exhibition match at the ACC in 1928.  Jones and his Atlanta buddy Watts Gunn played two members of the UGA golf team.  The Atlanta Journal account of the match says that Jones's approach shots on 5 holes came up more than 10 yards short, even though he hit the ball "as well as he intended."  All 5 of those holes have elevated greens that, with their bunkering schemes, make it very difficult to gauge the true distance to the putting surface.

Even after playing those hole thousands of times, I still have to fight my instincts and hit a longer club than my gut tells me I should.

As you say, Ross was very good.  


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