[texsport]

I see Olde Kinderhook as a Roger Clemens type comparison. Roger is most certainly a Hall of Famer -- he's not at the same level as a Tom Seaver or Steve Carlton.....


Boy is this incorrect!!!

Carlton
329-244
Career ERA--3.22

Seaver
311-205
Career ERA---2.86

Clemens
341-172
Career ERA--3.12

To keep it brief:

Clemens has the highest winning percentage of all time and ranks second in total strike outs.

Clemens' entire career, except for his 2 years in Houston, was in the American League against the DH. It's common knowledge that AL ERAs are about 1-1.5 runs higher than the NL. Of course Carlton and Seaver pitched only in the NL.

Clemens also pitched his entire career with the lowered mound, making it much more difficult for pitching.

Several baseball experts including Tim McCarver and HOFer Jim Kaat consider Clemens not only the greatest modern pitcher, but also, the greatest pitcher of all time.

[Andy Troeger]

Haven't played all that many of these, but from what I have:

OUT: Whistling Straits, IN: Blackwolf Run River

OUT: World Woods Pine Barrens, IN: Tullymore

[SteveC]

Out - Spyglass Hill, Harbour Town

In - Yeamans Hall, Wade ]Hampton

[ed_getka]

Out Baltusrol Lower
In Plainfield

Out Bandon Dunes
In Kingsley Club

Out Spyglass
In Friar's Head

I'm sure I could do a few more but there are a number of courses I have no plans to see.
Oak Hill
Muirfield Village
Whistling Straits
Medinah #3
Inverness
Shadow Creek
Scioto

[David Ober]

What's up with everyone removing Spyglass? Haven't played it, but many guys I know say it's a better course than Pebble. Now personally, I thought I had died and gone to heaven when I played Pebble, so I can't imagine it being any BETTER than Pebble, but don't many rate it pretty close to Pebble?

[jim_lewis]

Hi Andrew:

I had to go back to find the post I made in May, 2003, which I presume is the one you are referring to.

Forest Creek North was not open at that time. As a general rule, I refrain from touting courses where I are a member. I will say that it is pretty darned good.

[Andrew Cunningham]

Jim,

You're being modest.  Forest Creek North is as good if not better than most of Fazio's better known courses.  Hopefully more people will begin to appreciate what you have in the coming years.  Then again, you'd probably like to keep it under the radar.  I know I would.

Andrew

[Jeff Goldman]

Bump.

This was the thread I referred to in the Kingsley thread, but it is a cool thread on its own.  Tom posted the top 50 at the time, and required anyone who thought that this or that course belonged in to boot one out that they have actually played.  I would add that it would be good if folks would say why their choice belongs in and the bootee belongs out (other than "it's a great course").

[Tom_Doak]

Ah, the good old days when people would challenge me under assumed names or pretending to be dead guys!

[Mac Plumart]

Tom...

I did read some of those old posts and the "tone" people took with you back then is distinctly different from what it is now.  It makes me wonder when the term "butt boy" came about and when your regard from golf course critics began to soar.

Fun stuff to read!

[Jim Franklin]

Out :

Baltusrol Lower
Shoreacres
Maidstone
Cherry Hills
World Woods
Spyglass

In:

Rock Creek
Ballyneal
The Alotian
Victoria National
Friars Head
Baltimore CC (East)

[Tom_Doak]

Tom...

I did read some of those old posts and the "tone" people took with you back then is distinctly different from what it is now.  It makes me wonder when the term "butt boy" came about and when your regard from golf course critics began to soar.

Mac:

The "tone" you are talking about is directly related to the ability of people to post anonymously.  Rest assured there are still people participating on this site (and many more reading it but not posting) who think I get way too much attention and favoritism -- now more than ever, because I've built even more courses which are at odds with their point of view.  In fact, they're the guys who coined the other term you put in quotes, or go even further on the scatological scale.

But at least nowadays we don't have to listen to some bozo pretending to be C H Alison.

[john_stiles]

I see Olde Kinderhook as a Roger Clemens type comparison. Roger is most certainly a Hall of Famer -- he's not at the same level as a Tom Seaver or Steve Carlton.....


Boy is this incorrect!!!

Carlton
329-244
Career ERA--3.22

Seaver
311-205
Career ERA---2.86

Clemens
341-172
Career ERA--3.12

To keep it brief:

Clemens has the highest winning percentage of all time and ranks second in total strike outs.

Clemens' entire career, except for his 2 years in Houston, was in the American League against the DH. It's common knowledge that AL ERAs are about 1-1.5 runs higher than the NL. Of course Carlton and Seaver pitched only in the NL.

Clemens also pitched his entire career with the lowered mound, making it much more difficult for pitching.

Several baseball experts including Tim McCarver and HOFer Jim Kaat consider Clemens not only the greatest modern pitcher, but also, the greatest pitcher of all time.

Roger Clemens out.

Don't have one in put back in his place yet.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Looked at your recommendations ... agree with many of them. Would also add Kingsley and Black Mesa to the mix. Ditto for Plainfield to get a rise.

On the drop out side places like Interlachen, Quaker Ridge and Congressional.

Out :

Baltusrol Lower
Shoreacres
Maidstone
Cherry Hills
World Woods
Spyglass

In:

Rock Creek
Ballyneal
The Alotian
Victoria National
Friars Head
Baltimore CC (East)

[Jud_T]

Matt,

Probably a pretty good handicapping.  Hate to see Shoreacres drop though as it's one of my all-time favorites, although I understand your arguments about why it shouldn't be at the highest echelon....

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

The issue for Shoreacre fans is that it's a Raynor course -- you have people who simply see Shoreacres as one of his top tier best and I can see the quality of the holes in the middle of the round. But the property left me wanting so much more -- when compared to nearby Skokie -- and the first few holes and the closing stretch are not really offering something that made me want to return in a NY minute. Better Raynor options -- Fisher's Island and Camargo. If you want a sleeper Raynor -- not a top 100 mind you -- try Morris County GC in Convent Station, NJ.

Let me put it this way -- if you have a battle between the likes of a Plainfield and Shoreacres -- the Jersey layout wins out but for some reason Plainfield has been lost in the shadow (why that it is I have no idea) that Baltusrol casts.

[Kevin Pallier]

Interestingly - there are some significant differences between the original list back in around 2001 and the recent "unofficial" GCA USA Top50 listed late last year.

I've bolded the "New" courses that have been built in the time difference

Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Shinnecock Hills
Sand Hills
Merion (East)
National Golf Links of America
Pacific Dunes
Oakmont
Crystal Downs
Ballyneal (New)
Augusta National
Prairie Dunes
Pebble Beach
Seminole
Fishers Island
San Francisco
Riviera
Friar's Head (New)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Chicago Golf Club
Winged Foot (West)
The Country Club (Open)
Yale University
Bethpage (Black)
Rock Creek Cattle Company (New)
Pasatiempo
Kingsley Club (New)
Kiawah Island (Ocean) 
Los Angeles Country Club (North)
Garden City Golf Club
Bandon Trails (New)
Sebonack (New)
Valley Club of Montecito
The Olympic Club (Lake)
Shoreacres
Holston Hills
Plainfield Country
Myopia Hunt Club
Camargo
TPC Sawgrass (Stadium)
The Golf Club
Southern Hills
Bandon Dunes
Wannamoisett Country Club
Monterey Peninsula Country Club (Shore)
Whistling Straits (Straits)
Maidstone
Newport Country Club
Pete Dye Golf Club
Quaker Ridge

The following are the courses that didn't make the GCA list
Oakland Hills   
Oak Hill (East)   
Baltusrol Lwr   
Muirfield Village   
Medinah #3   
Winged Foot (East)   
Inverness   
Shadow Creek   
Scioto   
Spyglass Hill   
Harbour Town   
World Woods (Pine Barrens)   
Ocean Forest   
Somerset Hills   
The Honors Course   
Cascades (Upper)   
Cherry Hills   

[Tom_Doak]

That is amazing that Oakland Hills didn't make the top 50 list for Golf Club Atlas.  Nobody ever talks about it here, really.

I have only played it once [walked it four or five times, including the recent PGA].  The latest renovations detracted from it for me -- "let's just line the fairways with bunkers the whole way to make sure they are in play for everybody!" -- but still, it is a difficult test of golf with an awesome set of greens.  I'd put it ahead of any of the last nine courses on that top 50 list.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I do like OH/S but the overkill with the narrow fairways and the insertion of sand everywhere belies any strategic component. It's more about inflicting pain. I would think that if the layout had a bit less on the sand dimension and a bit more width it would engender far more respect and even praise.

What's interesting is how much more love an Oakmont receives when held against OH/S.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

Looked at your recommendations ... agree with many of them. Would also add Kingsley and Black Mesa to the mix. Ditto for Plainfield to get a rise.

On the drop out side places like Interlachen, Quaker Ridge and Congressional.

Out :

Baltusrol Lower
Shoreacres
Maidstone
Cherry Hills
World Woods
Spyglass

In:

Rock Creek
Ballyneal
The Alotian
Victoria National
Friars Head
Baltimore CC (East)

Matt -

Kingsley is in my top 50 so it would be in too. I have not played Black Mesa, but hope to soon. I did not go through the list close enough to remove all of the courses I needed to remove, but Kingsley is top 50 worthy.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim F.

No Black Rock?

[Jim Franklin]

Jim F.

No Black Rock?

Forgot that one too. Like I said, I did not take the time to go through the list, plus there were a couple on the original that I have not played (ANGC & Camargo). Whistling Straits, Olympic also out.

[Matt_Ward]

I would dare say that a top 50 for the USA would likely have no less than 15 courses that have opened since 1990. Unfortunately, there are people who continue to keep with the old time layouts for no other reason than a lack of personal familarity with the others that have since come forward in that respective time frame.

[PThomas]

That is amazing that Oakland Hills didn't make the top 50 list for Golf Club Atlas.  Nobody ever talks about it here, really.

I have only played it once [walked it four or five times, including the recent PGA].  The latest renovations detracted from it for me -- "let's just line the fairways with bunkers the whole way to make sure they are in play for everybody!" -- but still, it is a difficult test of golf with an awesome set of greens.  I'd put it ahead of any of the last nine courses on that top 50 list.

if OH didnt have an "awesome set of greens", would it garner any notice at all??

are there other, if any , courses that fit this descritption as well??

[Tom_Doak]

if OH didnt have an "awesome set of greens", would it garner any notice at all??

are there other, if any , courses that fit this descritption as well??

Paul:

That is a good question.  I do think Oakland Hills would still garner some attention if the greens were more subtle.  It's still got holes like 10 and 11 where the topography makes them interesting, and 15 with the bunker in the middle of the fairway, and 16 where the green is not why it's famous.  But would it be any better than Franklin Hills or a lot of other parkland courses if it didn't have cool greens?  No, probably not.

But you could say that for Winged Foot as well ... in fact Winged Foot with subtle greens would have even less to recommend it than Oakland Hills, and would not be as famous as Quaker Ridge, which has more variety of terrain.

In the end, the greens aren't everything, but it's hard to be great without them.  I think that's where most modern courses fall a bit short of greatness.  A lot of architects think the difference is all just marketing and bias -- but the difference is in the greens.

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